Bombardier CS100

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October 13th, 2017 at 1:21:36 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Delta's order was for 75 CS100, aircraft with 125 seats for which the only real competitor (sizewise) is produced in Brazil. But the Embraer aircraft do not have the range.
ATL to SEA = 1,894 nautical miles
Embraer E195-E2
Maximum takeoff weight 135,584 lb
Maximum landing weight 119,116 lb
Range 2,600 nmi
CS100
Maximum takeoff weight 134,000 lb
Maximum landing weight 115,500 lb
Range 3,100 nmi

Neither aircraft is very popular. Outside of Delta's order, only 48 other CS100s have been ordered by 6 other companies including 10 to Odyssey. Embraer E195-E2 has only received 65 orders total.

Odyssey Airlines is a British startup airline headquartered in London with a planned base at London City Airport. It is procuring 10 CS100 aircraft with a goal of flying all business class from LCY to JFK and Toronto. Plans call for 40 or 48 seats (I have heard both).

Possible Delta business idea. LaGuardia has extensive flights to 3 Canadian cities: Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa. Passengers are pre cleared in Canada. If LCY gets the same kind of pre clearance facility then
LGA to LCY = 3,011 nautical miles (LGA has 7000' runway) (LCY or London City has a 5000' runway steep ascent)
Delta might go into the same all premium business as Odyssey is proposing. Delta has a very small business from JFK to London compared to other 4 airlines.
October 13th, 2017 at 7:29:27 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 345
Posts: 12536
Quote: Pacomartin
Neither aircraft is very popular. Outside of Delta's order, only 48 other CS100s have been ordered by 6 other companies including 10 to Odyssey. Embraer E195-E2 has only received 65 orders total.


This confirms my observation that while demand for larger wide bodies hasn't grown (sorry A380!), demand for larger mid size planes is growing fast (and demand for small planes has plummeted).

Congestion is going to get a lot worse.

Quote:
Delta might go into the same all premium business as Odyssey is proposing. Delta has a very small business from JFK to London compared to other 4 airlines.


I don't see Delta doing this.

Jet Blue might, though, but with the A320. if they ever decide they want to go transatlantic.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
October 13th, 2017 at 8:12:24 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Nareed
I don't see Delta doing this. Jet Blue might, though, but with the A320. if they ever decide they want to go transatlantic.

I have to admit that I was flat out speculating as the LGA-LCY seems like a future potential with the work being done to renovate LGA. The problem is that the A320 or similar aircraft can't land at LCY which has only a 5000' runway. I don't think that a small "all premium seating" jet has much advantage over a first class cabin at Heathrow.

All Delta said in their press announcement was that Bombardier’s all-new, lightweight mainline aircraft will be deployed on short- to medium-haul routes throughout the airline’s network.
Delta has options for 50 additional C Series aircraft and certain delivery flexibility rights including the ability to substitute the larger CS300 aircraft.

The CS100s are probably going to be configured the same number of seats as B717 (average age 16 years) which are young planes by Delta standards.
91 Boeing 717-200 110 seats
75 Bombardier CS100 110 deats -Deliveries begin spring 2018.

The most immediate issue for Delta is the 113 McDonnell Douglas MD-88 (149 seats) at average age of 27.4 years which are to be phased out by 2020.

At least some of them will be replaced by the smaller CS100.

Within two years American and United will not be flying any configurations with less than 126 seats (except the 17 premium transcontinental A320s run by American). Delta is bucking the trend by expanding it's 110 seat configurations.
October 13th, 2017 at 8:53:04 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 345
Posts: 12536
Quote: Pacomartin
I have to admit that I was flat out speculating as the LGA-LCY seems like a future potential with the work being done to renovate LGA.


It might make sense to do so, seeing as the operational costs per passenger are much lower than on a 777, and the fare for business class can be as high. But then they may just cannibalize their own wide body flights. It's a bit of a complicated mess ;)

Then there's Delta's new business class suites. On a narrow body they'd perforce be 1-1. If they went 2-1 in the C Series, or 2-2 on an A320/1, they'd have to give up the suite door for 2/3 of passengers in one, and all in the other.

That's why I don't see them doing it.
Donald Trump is a fucking liar
October 13th, 2017 at 3:29:40 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 869
Posts: 10320
Quote: Nareed
It might make sense to do so, seeing as the operational costs per passenger are much lower than on a 777, and the fare for business class can be as high. But then they may just cannibalize their own wide body flights. It's a bit of a complicated mess ;)


Delta has only 3 flights per day from JFK to LHR and they are on small B767 that are almost empty. The advantage of flying from La Guardia is that business travelers in Manhattan prefer it to JFK. They also prefer London city airport over London Heathrow because it is much closer. In the past the short runways have made such trips impossible.

Now the problem is immigration control. But LCY may get a pre-boarding facility like Canadian airports.

If Delta gave up their JFK-LHR operations (120 seats), I am sure they would make much more money on LGA-LCY with all premium seating (40 seats)

JFK - LHR
07:55:00 AM - 07:45:00 PM British Airways
08:15:00 AM - 08:10:00 PM Virgin Atlantic
10:15:00 AM - 10:10:00 PM American Airlines
...
06:20:00 PM - 06:20:00 AM American Airlines
06:30:00 PM - 06:25:00 AM British Airways
06:30:00 PM - 06:45:00 AM Virgin Atlantic
...
07:00:00 PM - 07:10:00 AM British Airways
07:00:00 PM - 07:20:00 AM Virgin Atlantic
...
07:30:00 PM - 07:35:00 AM British Airways
07:30:00 PM - 07:50:00 AM Delta
...
08:10:00 PM - 08:10:00 AM American Airlines
08:15:00 PM - 08:25:00 AM British Airways
08:30:00 PM - 08:45:00 AM Delta
08:45:00 PM - 08:50:00 AM British Airways
...
09:30:00 PM - 09:35:00 AM British Airways
09:30:00 PM - 09:40:00 AM Virgin Atlantic
...
10:29:00 PM - 10:30:00 AM American Airlines
10:30:00 PM - 10:40:00 AM Delta
10:55:00 PM - 11:00:00 AM British Airways
October 13th, 2017 at 8:31:58 PM permalink
terapined
Member since: Aug 6, 2014
Threads: 44
Posts: 4273
Quote: Pacomartin
Delta has only 3 flights per day from JFK to LHR and they are on small B767 that are almost empty. The advantage of flying from La Guardia is that business travelers in Manhattan prefer it to JFK. They also prefer London city airport over London Heathrow because it is much closer. In the past the short runways have made such trips impossible.

Now the problem is immigration control. But LCY may get a pre-boarding facility like Canadian airports.

If Delta gave up their JFK-LHR operations (120 seats), I am sure they would make much more money on LGA-LCY with all premium seating (40 seats)


That's interesting about LCY.
To be honest, none of my clients ask for LCY.
I sell it sometimes for a flight into Europe.

I have very few clients in NYC area so generally I use NYC as a destination or connecting point.

The UK for my clients, I mostly book LHR, MAN, BHX, LGW, MME

Various cities in the USA to London, Delta availability comes up a lot because they codeshare with Virgin Atlantic.
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own - Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World"
October 13th, 2017 at 11:34:22 PM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 869
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Quote: terapined
To be honest, none of my clients ask for LCY.
I sell it sometimes for a flight into Europe.

The airport has been only open for 30 years, and with a 5000' runway it is very limited in range with only one of the 12 most popular destinations just outside of 500 nautical mile range.


The 32 seat "banker's shuttle" from LCY to JFK started about 10 years ago by British Airways, and was given the old Concorde route numbers. The A318 , nicknamed the "baby bus",was especially designed for short runways and sold terribly. On the Westbound leg against the headwinds, it had to refuel in Shannon, but they took advantage of the time to let passengers go through USA customs so they didn't have to do so at JFK.

The CS100 will not have to stop in Ireland, so presumably the bankers will be on fast track to go through customs at JFK.

The A318 only ever sold 80 planes from 2003-2013 and 13 are already inactive.

LCY is not among the 11 airports identified for possible 2nd round of Preclearance locations:
El Dorado International Airport (BOG) in Bogota, Colombia;
Ministro Pistarini International Airport (EZE) in Buenos Aires, Argentina;
Edinburgh Airport (EDI) in Edinburgh, United Kingdom;
Keflavik International Airport (KEF) in Iceland;
Mexico City International Airport (MEX) in Mexico City, Mexico;
Milan-Malpensa Airport (MXP) in Milan, Italy;
Kansai International Airport (KIX) in Osaka, Japan;
Rio de Janeiro-Galeão International Airport (GIG) in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil;
Leonardo da Vinci-Fiumicino Airport (FCO) in Rome, Italy;
São Paulo-Guarulhos International Airport (GRU) in Sao Paulo, Brazil; and
Princess Juliana International Airport (SXM) in St. Maarten.

In 2015 18 million travelers were pre-cleared for flights to the USA from 15 air Preclearance locations in 6 countries: Aruba; Freeport and Nassau, the Bahamas; Bermuda; Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, and Winnipeg, Canada; Dublin and Shannon, Ireland; and Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.
October 15th, 2017 at 8:18:17 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 869
Posts: 10320
Potential retaliation
Canada Jetlines is a new company but so far they have only ordered the 5 Boeing aircraft, but they intend to lease another 24 B737s. Right now they only have a letter of intent to begin leasing two B737s starting in April 2018.

As they are brand new, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't get assistance in cancelling their current orders and lease plans and in purchasing Bombardier CS300s. The 5 B737 Max -7s are actually fairly close counterparts to the CS300.


The other two airlines in Canada with All Boeing fleets are Westjet (20 years old ) and Air Canada (the national airline)

The Past:
Air Canada received 218 Boeing or MD aircraft (including 29 Dreamliners).
Westjet has received 121 Boeing aircraft

The Future:
WestJet of Canada has 10 unfilled orders for Dreamliners.
Air Canada has 8 unfilled orders for Dreamliners.

The 111 unfilled orders for B737s and 80 filled orders can be broken down by the two airlines:
WestJet (Canada)
737 MAX 50 2 48
737-700 42 42 -
737-800 38 36 2
Subtotal 130 80 50

Air Canada (Canada)
737 MAX 61 - 61

Those orders are worth a lot lot more money than 75 planes with 110 seats apiece whose primary competition is made by Embraer.

Specifically two of these Canadian airlines are responsible for 20 out of 50 of the orders for the Max-7 variation, which is facing direct competition by the CS300.
December 11, 2014 Canada Jetlines 5
September 26, 2013 WestJet 15
December 13, 2011 Southwest Airlines 30

As Southwest has the option to upgauge to the MAX -8 variation, it is possible that Boeing will lose every order for this model. As Boeing is planning on increasing their production line to 52 planes per month, this entire line could be made in a single month
October 15th, 2017 at 8:53:42 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 54
Posts: 6562
Orders, options, delivery slots.... or bargaining chips.... who knows?

Airlines do not get "locked in" to a plane but it is a tremendous investment in training, maintenance and spare parts storage. Even airplane buffs don't really choose a flight by the technology involved, they choose by loyalty points, scheduling, etc.

A "Bankers Special" ?? There are lots of bankers and lots of businessmen whose schedules mimic a bankers. Close-in airports help but only if they are quick turnarounds for the planes.

Planes do not have to be optimal they only have to be suitable.
October 15th, 2017 at 9:00:06 AM permalink
Pacomartin
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 869
Posts: 10320
Quote: Fleastiff
Airlines do not get "locked in" to a plane but it is a tremendous investment in training, maintenance and spare parts storage. Even airplane buffs don't really choose a flight by the technology involved, they choose by loyalty points, scheduling, etc.


Westjet and Canadian Airlines are very heavily invested in Boeing aircraft. Canadian Jetliner will not even begun flying until next April. I think they will have both the pressure and assistance to break their agreements so far and switch to Bombardier.

The flipside is that Canadian Jetliner is a tiny customer with plans to lease 24 planes and buy 5 more. But if CJ pulls out those 5 orders and Canadian Airlines pulls their 15 orders they have essentially killed the Max-7 and the competition with the CS300.
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