Does Religion Make People Moral?

December 2nd, 2017 at 11:55:21 AM permalink
rxwine
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: FrGamble
It is like a good teacher who starts teaching math where the students are at. To jump into calculus is meaningless. To first learn addition and then multiplication tables is the only way someone will learn.


OT- FrG's comment made me wonder if you could somehow learn math backwards.

Made me think of Suzuki style training. Not sure if that is really equivalent. Guess not -- theory of method was different that I thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLqjNaSEpV0

As you were.
Nobody learned anything from the global financial crisis.
December 2nd, 2017 at 12:06:04 PM permalink
beachbumbabs
Member since: Sep 3, 2013
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Quote: Mosca
Quote: FrGamble
Quote: Nareed
So you do keep torturing witches, heretics and infidels before you burn them at the stake?

I really thought that was no longer common practice in your organization, and quite frankly I'm not pleased at all to know it still goes on.


I never have done any of the things you mentioned. It was also never a common practice in the Church and our saints and other holy men and women constantly preach against it. It does go on still in modern ways but the Catholic Church, Christians, or others considered infidels are the victims.


You are thinking of yourself, and your own branch of Christianity. To this day there are people using Christianity to justify racial dominance and slavery. And while not race related, in Ireland Catholics and Protestants fought for years rather than listen to what their god preached.

That is the whole point of the article, that being religious does not make someone moral: they will bend their religion to justify their beliefs rather than alter their beliefs to fit what their religion preaches.


I would.add that there are a good many immoral religions, at least in my ethos.

There are those that teach or condone killing infidels for no other reason than not believing in the same faith, for instance. Not just Muslim sects, either.
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December 2nd, 2017 at 2:54:01 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: beachbumbabs
There are those that teach or condone killing infidels for no other reason than not believing in the same faith, for instance. Not just Muslim sects, either.


Here are a couple choice passages from the bible:

Quote: Deuteronomy 13:7-15
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you. If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the Lord thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.


Quote: Deuteronomy 17: 1-5
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
December 2nd, 2017 at 3:18:40 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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I doubt there is enough space on this website to post choice passages from the Bible that would call for forgiveness and loving neighbor and enemy. One that jumps to mind is Jesus and woman caught in adultery. "Let the one without sin cast the first stone...Has no one condemned you, neither do I. God and sin no more."

Another minor point is that both of these passages cited don't directly address Babs point. She was talking about people who want to condemn or kill others just because they don't believe or think like them. These passages refer to Jews who either entice other Jews to sin against God or Jews who blatantly and explicitly live contrary to God's law and may entice others to do so. It says nothing about the unbeliever (aka infidels) or the Gentiles.
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December 2nd, 2017 at 3:33:27 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: FrGamble
These passages refer to Jews who either entice other Jews to sin against God or Jews who blatantly and explicitly live contrary to God's law and may entice others to do so.


Okay, how about this one then:

Quote: Deuteronomy 2:32-35
When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
December 2nd, 2017 at 4:43:21 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Wizard
Okay, how about this one then:


I think this may be in some ways akin to the current mentality of the Israeli army. When you are a small force surrounded by enemies, when they attack you then you hit back hard. Regardless it still doesn't address Babs point that any ideology is sick when it encourages violence on someone just because they differ from your point of view. I think you might have better luck finding this mentality from many radical liberals who brook no disagreement with any difference of opinion on certain issues.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 2nd, 2017 at 4:46:52 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: FrGamble
When you are a small force surrounded by enemies, when they attack you then you hit back hard.


Yes, but the women and children too?
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
December 2nd, 2017 at 4:57:00 PM permalink
petroglyph
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Quote: FrGamble
I think this may be in some ways akin to the current mentality of the Israeli army. When you are a small force surrounded by enemies, when they attack you then you hit back hard.
Has someone attacked Israel or Israeli occupied territory?
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December 2nd, 2017 at 5:10:14 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: Wizard
Yes, but the women and children too?


There is a lot of ink spilled about that and why it would be, none of it very convincing for any of us who know life only after the New Testament.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
December 2nd, 2017 at 5:13:41 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: petroglyph
Has someone attacked Israel or Israeli occupied territory?


Here is what a quick search came up with:
1948 Arab–Israeli War, the first Arab–Israeli war from 15 May 1948 until 10 March 1949
Suez Crisis, the second Arab–Israeli war, a military attack by Britain, France, and Israel on Egypt from 29 October and 7 November 1956, with the intention to occupy the Sinai Peninsula and to take over the Suez Canal
Six-Day War, the third Arab–Israeli war fought between Israel and Egyptian Republic, Jordan, and Syria from 5 until 10 June 1967
War of Attrition, war fought between Israel Egyptian Republic, the USSR, Jordan, Syria, and the Palestine Liberation Organization from 1 July 1967 until 7 August 1970
Yom Kippur War, the fourth Arab–Israeli war fought by a coalition of Arab states led by Egypt and Syria against Israel as a way of recapturing part of the territories which they lost to the Israelis in the Six-Day War from 6 until 25 October 1973
First Lebanon War, Israel Defense Forces invasion of southern Lebanon from 6 June 1982 until June 1985
Second Lebanon War, a military conflict in Lebanon, northern Israel and the Golan Heights involving Hezbollah paramilitary forces and the Israeli military from 12 July until 14 August 2006
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (