Am I an agnostic or an atheist?

Quote: FrGamble

When we are talking about God and life after death we are discussing the most important issues we can face as human beings. The answers we hold often color everything else we believe, say, or do. It is a good thing to wrestle with them. I don't know and am just guessing here, but maybe you are not as okay with "simple darkness" as you think? You have such a beautiful way of enjoying this life and expressing it through your writing, I think it is only natural for you to look around you and feel a tug for something more or a desire to enjoy fishing a little more than 70 years. Even just as "Gamble" I think we as humans beings should dare to hope that there is something more. We are too awesome and this world too intriguing in my mind for this to be it.

Thank you for the compliment and also for getting my brain revved up first thing in the morning. You got it going 100mph thinking about this =)

But as for your guess, it’s just not so. The thought that I will one day cease to be doesn’t fill me with dread or worry, or cause me to wish there was more. It just seems natural and easy to accept. I remember long ago on WoV giving you my version of the afterlife, and that’s just the way I feel. That’s what my brain and my heart tells me is true, and it doesn’t bother me at all. You could even say it’s comforting. I mean, I miss the family I’ve lost. But they’re not “gone”. I see the people they were come out in the things I do. In part, I am them. Their bodies are gone, but who they were lives on. My son… my god… I could die tonight, but I would not leave this world. The things he does, it’s like looking into my own time machine at 4 year old Face. His demeanor, his attitude, his faces he makes… it’s me. He’s beginning to form values, and as he does, they will reflect mine, which in turn reflected those given to me by my dead family, given to them by their dead family… it never ends. My grandfather died when I was 8, 20 years before my son was born, but my son is still him. He still lives on.

I can’t find anything upsetting or disappointing in that thought. I actually find it more similar with your belief than one might think. It’s still eternal life, just by a different mechanism. Sure, my version doesn’t allow myself to enjoy it since I will cease to exist, while a “Christian Face” could hang with God and maybe fish with Jesus, but… I dunno. That thought just doesn’t bother me.

Quote: FrGamble

Now I know this can be quickly dismissed as wishful thinking and others will come down hard and say things like Col. Jessup, "You can't handle the truth!" I should wake up and realize we are all just worm food and the universe and everything will eventually just be meaningless dust. This gets me upset and I don't know why either. So if you can help me overcome my angst with eventual nothingness I will try to offer anything I can to help you overcome those strong emotions you feel when thinking about the possibilities of eternal life.

I suppose the above would be the only thing I could offer to relieve your angst, but I have a feeling it won’t work much. I mean, as you said, you feel we are talking about the most important issue we as humans could discuss. Even more so, you have dedicated your entire life to this question and sacrificed everything you are. While I think my explanation is completely “jab free”, it still by its very nature cannot help but to be a view that tells you that everything your doing is pointless. No matter how innocent the expression of my beliefs, that fact remains. It’s not my intention, but there is no other way. And just now, as I type this out, I just gained understanding.

I remember telling you this very belief of mine back a while ago on WoV, after you opined how awful atheism was, as an attempt to give insight to the idea. You thanked me and complimented me on the idea, and within a day, posted again how terrible atheism was. I didn’t get it… but I think now I do.

Asking you to understand my atheist views isn’t just asking to understand a different concept, it’s asking you to understand that everything you are may be false. Hell, I wouldn’t accept that either, and I suppose it was unfair of me to ask. Asking you to do that was exactly the same as the pro-Gods telling me I was going to hell, simply for not believing in God, despite the fact that most of my life is righteous and Christ-like. I think I might owe you an apology, so I’m sorry.

But perhaps there’s maybe one thing I could say to relieve the angst. I think in the end, “who is right” doesn’t matter at all. Despite if I’m right and there’s nothingness, if you’re right and there is this goal of Heaven, or neither of us is right and there’s some other destination outside of the limits of human understanding, I think as long as you live “right” and stay true to yourself, you can’t go wrong. I mean, even in my scenario, which you’ve already decided would be horrible, it doesn’t mean you were insignificant. I’m sure that as a result of the choices you’ve made on your path of life, you’ve touched a number of lives. I can tell you you’ve positively affected me just by being open in these “opposing view” conversations, an effect that will live on through me and spread and affect other people, hopefully making the world just that little bit more tolerant of others. The people who you have a great deal of contact will consist of even more “you”, and will pass on even more of “you” to those around them, who will pass it on, and on, and on, probably well after you die. Regardless of who is right, we will both live well after we die, and our actions will positively affect the lives of those around us; friends, family, in my case, children. Pretty much the only difference is that your belief allows you to stick around and see the results, whereas mine leaves that privilege to those still living.

As for my own reaction to theism, the “bad” doesn’t exist anymore. I used to get real uppity; 20yr old Face would be challenging you at every turn trying to convince everyone who would listen (and everyone who didn’t) that you were WRONG! But I think that was in large part to some negative experiences growing up, which I’ll spare for the moment as this reply is already too long. Pretty much the only thing theist that bothers me now is having it forced upon me (which almost never happens), or those who “rule me” ruling as a messenger of God. Praying for mercy in a bad situation is OK, leaving the bad situation “in the hands of God” is very not (likewise almost never happens).

I guess I'll stop here. Sorry for the derail, Wiz!

Face your discussions are very valuable to me as well. In this last magnificent post you have made me more proud to be called "father" and inspired me to continue to strive to be the best spiritual father I can be. Thanks!

If I could start reverse aging (which wouldn't be a bad thing for 20 years or so), when I finally got to the point of unborn-ness would there be a sense of dread about where I'm going?

I've been unborn, and as I recall, I don't recall at all.

So, no, I don't think it would be something to fear. Why fear the opposite?

Quote: rxwine

If I could start reverse aging (which wouldn't be a bad thing for 20 years or so), when I finally got to the point of unborn-ness would there be a sense of dread about where I'm going?

I've been unborn, and as I recall, I don't recall at all.

So, no, I don't think it would be something to fear. Why fear the opposite?

Just like everything else, you need to be clear between what you know and what you think you know. I would bet you don't know what you'll eat for dinner a month from now or remember what you ate a month ago. Who won the Superbowl the last 5 years? Although most people have watched it every year, most cannot recall if you ask. Reality is just short hand for the brain's interpretation to make sense of the universe we detect. The mind will play tricks to make sense of the situation in whatever way it has to, to make it seem right. You see the world in 3 dimensions, but it is just the brain's way of making sense of it because the eyes can only see 2 dimensions. Being so absurd about not remembering what most cannot remember, really just proves you cannot remember and don't know the future.

We are talking about something which nobody's intellect can possibly solve. The world's greatest scientists for centuries had enough humility to admit the impossibility to ever know everything, if not just because of past mistakes being wrong before. I suggest it would be impossible even with all the mass and all the energy to build a computer able to know everything, everything to happen in the future, and everything that ever happened in the past. If we could not do this, how could anything with mass accomplish it? That is the gist of what I remember Michio Kaku speak about on the topic. A friend of mine from the religious cult worshipping the pharoah shared this link from their website.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=limits-on-human-comprehension

We cannot test our own Universe without leaving our Universe, yet people want proof for something which by definition there cannot be proof. You are demanding the solution first before you agree to the research to determine the solution. Let us not be so arrogant to think because we at this point cannot find all the answers and think we cannot, there cannot be someone with the power outside the known universes to know. Once you can take the lead on the referenced link and make the corrections for them, I will be on your side of the argument God cannot exist, because I am unable to figure out how. In the mean time, I stay open, because I know let alone myself being unable, others smarter than me, are unable to even propose a way to know for sure. It is past the limit of human comprehension.

I've only read some of the posts but here is my take...

I was raised Catholic, but when I was fourteen, while hanging out with a group of friends, their conversation swallowed up by the hot summer night's air, I stared up at the stars and started to think about what we know about the Universe. What an amazing fact that we can know that a little point of light is actually a huge ball of burning gas thousands or millions of lights years away. Yet, why do I see very little or no evidence of God? Why do I even believe in God? Because someone told me so, with no real evidence? In that moment I became an atheist. Later turned to agnostic, but in my mind there pretty much is no difference.

Somewhere between the ages of 18 and 21 I thought to myself religion is detrimental to the advancement of humanity (eg. Embryonic stem cell research) Turns out Bill Maher completely agrees with me in his movie Religilous. In that way i think its important to try to convince people there is probably no God. When the future of our species could depend on superstitious belief I'd rather not let that determine public policy..

This is Jonathon Morris of Fox several years
ago, he's their resident Catholic priest. He's
talking about atheism, and that he has 'lots
of atheist friends' (he doesn't), and they 'all
suffer their atheism, they suffer the fact that
they don't believe'. (they don't)

What a bunch of malarkey. I don't know anybody
who 'suffers their atheism', that wishes they
could believe but can't. This is pure wishful thinking
on his part. He also says he buys all the current
atheist books (he doesn't) because he doesn't
understand what makes atheists tick. (yes he does)

I don't agree with anything he says, especially
his little rant at the end about how atheists
should leave god out of science, that it's 'bad
science' to say god doesn't exist because they
can't prove it. As far as I know, science never
says god doesn't exist, it says science can't
prove he does. Shame on you Jonathon
Morris.

Holy smoke, I've found a new friend. This
guy is fantastic. He's in his 70's now and
for 7 years was a Catholic seminarian,
and for 5 years a Catholic priest. A
full fledged, working priest in a parish
in Texas. He has a couple hundred
videos on YouTube about what it
was like being a priest and what his
beliefs are now. This guy blows me
away.

This is only 4 min long, well worth it.

What I can't leave unchallenged is many things this poor priest says. First of all he is as confused as Evenbob in regards to evidence and accumulating probability of evidence. You can say you believe in reason all you want, but when you can't reason that scientific proof is not the only way to gain knowledge than I must question his credibility. Then he puts the cherry on top by saying religion hinders science and the progress of humanity. It was the Church that was and is mother and supporter of science and scientists, from the beginning until today. Many of the smartest and most well known scientist on whose shoulders we stand today were devoted Catholics and many even clergy or religious. Yes the Church does call lust, recreational sex, and other such things the culture embraces as immoral, but I would challenge anyone to look at society today and argue otherwise.

Quote: FrGamble

What I can't leave unchallenged is many things this poor priest says. First of all he is as confused as Evenbob

One thing he is not, and that's confused. I've
listened to about 20 of video's (out of a
couple hundred) and he is a very smart,
well spoken man. He goes into great detail
about all aspects of the Church and what
it means to be on the 'inside'. He has the
stink of credibility all over him.

He has one video on sanity. He questions
his sanity for the 12 years he was inside
the Church. He regrets many of the insane
things they taught him to teach. His words,
not mine. He says when he talks to other
Catholics, especially clergy, they don't want
to discuss religion, all they want is him to
confess his sins and be a priest again.
You call him a 'poor priest'. I'm sure he
would say are the poor priest, not him.

This is a good one on superstition. He
really nails it.

I found an iPhone in my grocery cart
today. I turned it on and called the
first number on the list and an older
lady answered. It was her sisters phone
and she would tell her the phone was
turned in at the store.

I didn't hesitate to do this. How is that
possible, I'm an atheist and have no
moral center, I'm out of control with
no god to guide me. What BS. I would
hate to lose my phone and knew the
owner would be relieved some honest
person had found it. This is how morality
works, god has no involvement in it or
anything else, for that matter.