First Principles

Quote: Evenbob

There is no good or bad
'out there', it's all inside our
heads.

I have to agree with Bob.

Quote: DRich

I have to agree with Bob.

So do you think things like rape or slavery can be good things if we inside our heads decide they are?

Quote: FrGamble

Why do you think good cannot come from bad things?

Because if something is truly evil,
it cannot give birth to good. If
it did then it's not truly evil.

You're making my point for
me. A so called bad thing can
lead to a good thing because
it's not really a bad thing to
begin with, in and of itself.
We are the ones who label
it bad, the universe does
not. The universe has no
opinion. There are no objective
laws that pertain to good and
evil because good and evil
does not exist outside our minds.

Quote: FrGamble

So do you think things like rape or slavery can be good things if we inside our heads decide they are?

Absolutely. Soldiers of invading
armies were legally allowed
to rape the enemies women
as much as they wanted. Do
you think the soldiers thought
it a bad thing? The women
being raped certainly thought
it was evil. So you have an act
the men considered a boon,
a reward for valor. And women
had the opposite impression.

Now you'll say that just because
rape was made a reward, does
that make it right? Not in today's
world, but in the ancient world
right and wrong were interpreted
differently. My mother used to
punish us by using a switch on
on our bare legs. Today that
would get her thrown in jail.
Was she wrong? Not at that time
she wasn't, it was what parents
did.

Quote: FrGamble

So do you think things like rape or slavery can be good things if we inside our heads decide they are?

I believe anything could be considered good or bad depending on the perspective and circumstances.

Yes, even rape and murder.

Quote: DRich

I believe anything could be considered good or bad depending on the perspective and circumstances.

Yes, even rape and murder.

Wait whose perspective or circumstances? I don't think you are really thinking through what you are saying. Do you really think raping and murdering someone could be a good and moral thing to do? I just want to make sure I am hearing you right?!? What would those situations or circumstances be? Do you think the one being raped and killed would agree with you?

Quote: Evenbob

Because if something is truly evil,
it cannot give birth to good. If
it did then it's not truly evil.

This is so weird, I think we agree with each other but there is something lost in translation. Good things can come after something evil happens but not from the evil itself. In your example of the drunk driver killings someone leading to business for the funeral home we have to remember we are talking about two different events. One bad and one good. They are not the same event but lead to each other. Suffering is a bad thing, but in the case of surgery or childbirth it leads to a good thing. Again these are related but different. I think we agree that evil actions are never good in themselves but good things can come from them such as people helping each other, forgiveness, business profits, learning important lessons, etc.

Quote: FrGamble

Wait whose perspective or circumstances? I don't think you are really thinking through what you are saying. Do you really think raping and murdering someone could be a good and moral thing to do? I just want to make sure I am hearing you right?!? What would those situations or circumstances be? Do you think the one being raped and killed would agree with you?

It's human nature.

Quote: Evenbob

Absolutely. Soldiers of invading
armies were legally allowed
to rape the enemies women
as much as they wanted. Do
you think the soldiers thought
it a bad thing? The women
being raped certainly thought
it was evil. So you have an act
the men considered a boon,
a reward for valor. And women
had the opposite impression.

So who is right in this situation. Are the woman right or are the soldiers? I don't care what the soldiers thought was right I am asking you and for the love of the spaghetti monster I hope with all my heart that you recognize that just because the soldiers thought rape was okay that did NOT make it okay. Please Bob, tell me you understand human rights are not based on who is powerful or what some warlord believes...please.

Quote: petroglyph

It's human nature.

What kind of sick and twisted human nature do you think we have?!? We are called to greatness and full of potential for heroic and loving acts. You cannot just chalk up rape and murder to human nature - it is not human nature! It is the nature of beasts and animals.