Black Jogging Enthusiast Killed by Racist Vigilantes For Making Sure Construction Site was Safe

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May 21st, 2020 at 4:48:24 AM permalink
RonC
Member since: Nov 7, 2012
Threads: 8
Posts: 2452
I think this will not end well for the shooters. The person that was shot should not be dead at the hands of these two. This was not an emergency situation where deadly force was necessary. I think they overstepped with their actions.

Follow the guy at a safe distance, don't let him near you, and use a weapon only if he starts to attack you before you wave a gun at him. You are in a vehicle. Keep it hard for him to get to you.
May 21st, 2020 at 5:26:27 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: Gandler
Ahmaud Arbery was innocently jobbing in Brunswick area (GA) when chased down by racist white vigilantes after inspecting a construction site, he was clearly a jogging enthusiast who also had a passion for making sure construction sites were up to code afterhours.


Sarcasm. That's a good lead. The inside of a house under construction can be interesting if you haven't seen one before. We've later discovered that the guys who killed him (contrary to unsubstantiated claims that had been made elsewhere---Facebook) were not asked to watch over the property in question. The defense of a clearly racially motivated killing started to kind of fall apart for them at that point, so most of them clammed up.

That doesn't make you a racist, despite the initial sarcasm, you present some valid points that we will address below.

Quote:
At least that is the impression I have gotten over the last several weeks from leftist friends (this happened not far from where I currently am). The more I dig into this incident the more it seems that Arbery was no angel. I don't know for sure if he should have been shot. (The courts will ultimately decide). But, he clearly was a sketchy person. This is another case where the Left has failed us on logically evaluating emotionally challenging issues.


First of all, let me offer you my apologies that you are currently in the hellhole known as the American South.

"I don't know for sure if he should have been shot," well, I'm glad that you're leaving a margin for error on a completely unjustified killing in which Arbery (who was unarmed and on foot) was outnumbered by armed men. That's very compassionate of you to consider the possibility that he shouldn't have been accosted in such a fashion.

So, Arbery has a checkered past. What's the plan? Should we just start killing people after they've been released from jail/prison? After all, they're no angels. Maybe you should look up all of the names of former criminals near you and set up a posse. Those people are no angels, either.

Quote:
Arbery has a history of not being a good citizen. Arrests for various minor things pepper his past. That does not merit being shot. But, his behavior in various prior bodycam footage gives you an idea of his personality when confronted by police. Now, emulate that mentality to somebody performing a citizen arrest (while on the phone with police), you can see that he would behave aggressively and irate.


I would be aggressive myself if two guys with guns and no legal authority to attempt to detain me were trying to do so.

Of course, since I'm white, the two wannabe KKK members would have just politely asked me what I was doing at that property...if they said anything to me at all.

Also, they had no legal grounds to attempt a citizens arrest...and that's going to be a big problem for them.

In Georgia, and I can cite the specific code again if you want, you only have authorization to attempt a citizens arrest if you have probable suspicion that a person has committed a felony. You may not be up on Georgia codes, but I can assure you that trespass is a misdemeanor. At least, I think. What's the minimum death penalty age down there, five years old, or something, right? Maybe your trespass laws are more strict than elsewhere.

Anyway, they suspected that he might have stolen something from an unlocked truck months prior. The interesting thing about that is that theft is also NOT a felony, even if he had done it, unless the item in question has a value of greater than $500. That's Georgia law, I didn't write it.

If the item in question has a value of greater than $500, then it COULD be a felony, but Georgia code specifically states it is for the judge to decide to charge it as a felony or not.

Since Arbery had not been arrested and they were not in court, neither of the two killers was the judge, therefore; they have no legal standing to decide if the theft...again assuming he even did it...was a felony.

Because they ha no probable suspicion that he committed a felony, the attempt at a citizens arrest itself was illegal.

Quote:
If you are making a citizen's arrest with a firearm and somebody tries to grab it from you, does that justify deadly force? (The courts will decide).


They had no legal grounds in the State of Georgia to even attempt a citizens arrest, therefore, the underlying actions were illegal. Ergo, Arbery acted in straight up self-defense.

Quote:
But, I just wanted to make this post because it is close to home in more than one way. The left is sadly digging in their trenches of a racial motif. And, any genuine debate over the issue is punted off as you are a neo-Nazi or modern KKK.....

I am very interested in how the case will resolve, because I have a feeling it is going to be similar in many way to Trayvon Martin (where the Killer is found not guilty).


Well, most of the people interested in a so-called, "Genuine debate," happen to be racists...but there are a few (such as yourself) who are not. Approaching him and outnumbering him with deadly firearms when he was no immediate physical threat to anyone is pretty clearly ridiculous. Also, they had no grounds to attempt a citizens arrest.

Quote:
Should they have followed him? I don't know, if you live in a neighborhood where you are getting burguralized night after night you would be frustrated and likely do the same. They followed him while on the phone with police (similar to Zimmerman) after he broke into a construction site and he matched the description of the local burglar at many houses around the neighborhood. They were clearly not on some random killing spree of black joggers.


They can follow them all they want to, they're in a truck. Should they have tried to stop him? No. Would they have tried to stop him if he was white? Maybe, but not brandishing weapons as they were.

He also didn't, "Break in," to a construction site because there was no breaking of anything. He walked into a construction site.

They could theoretically have suspected burglary, which would be a felony and make a citizens arrest legal...except he didn't take anything and there's no way for anyone to know whether he intended to take anything or not. Georgia law is weird in that you don't actually have to take or attempt to take in order to commit burglary, just have the intent to take. We could ask him if he intended to take anything, except he's dead.

Anyway, that's pretty much going to be the best case they can make as having grounds for a citizens arrest. Perhaps fortunately for the pair, I believe the Law Firm of Ku, Klux and Klan PLLC is on the case.

Quote:
Many of the left don't like my position on this, and feel it is racist to even make logical objections. But, this is clearly not cut and dry. Arbery was not an angel, had a history of aggression.... Some are saying the only reason that the killers were not arrested is because of their police ties. Maybe, or maybe the police felt that it was justified force (like with Zimmerman until they were forced to arrest)….. Its hard to say, but I have a feeling they will not be convicted.... Like always I am open to convincing either way.

Body cam footage from 2017 encounter in park. Very worth watching to get a sense of his attitude.
https://fox6now.com/2020/05/19/video-georgia-officer-tried-to-tase-ahmaud-arbery-in-2017/


If you have the time I implore you to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W33Wf9keOQ&t=2164s


It's not racist to make logical objections. It's not even racist to make illogical objections, at least, not always. It's pretty cut and dry. His criminal past is irrelevant, and assumes that the pair who killed him would even know who he was to know about his criminal past. They had no reason to have a probable suspicion that he committed a felony, and therefore, no grounds to attempt a citizens arrest.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
May 21st, 2020 at 8:42:39 AM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: Mission146
Sarcasm. That's a good lead. The inside of a house under construction can be interesting if you haven't seen one before. We've later discovered that the guys who killed him (contrary to unsubstantiated claims that had been made elsewhere---Facebook) were not asked to watch over the property in question. The defense of a clearly racially motivated killing started to kind of fall apart for them at that point, so most of them clammed up.

That doesn't make you a racist, despite the initial sarcasm, you present some valid points that we will address below.



First of all, let me offer you my apologies that you are currently in the hellhole known as the American South.

"I don't know for sure if he should have been shot," well, I'm glad that you're leaving a margin for error on a completely unjustified killing in which Arbery (who was unarmed and on foot) was outnumbered by armed men. That's very compassionate of you to consider the possibility that he shouldn't have been accosted in such a fashion.

So, Arbery has a checkered past. What's the plan? Should we just start killing people after they've been released from jail/prison? After all, they're no angels. Maybe you should look up all of the names of former criminals near you and set up a posse. Those people are no angels, either.



I would be aggressive myself if two guys with guns and no legal authority to attempt to detain me were trying to do so.

Of course, since I'm white, the two wannabe KKK members would have just politely asked me what I was doing at that property...if they said anything to me at all.

Also, they had no legal grounds to attempt a citizens arrest...and that's going to be a big problem for them.

In Georgia, and I can cite the specific code again if you want, you only have authorization to attempt a citizens arrest if you have probable suspicion that a person has committed a felony. You may not be up on Georgia codes, but I can assure you that trespass is a misdemeanor. At least, I think. What's the minimum death penalty age down there, five years old, or something, right? Maybe your trespass laws are more strict than elsewhere.

Anyway, they suspected that he might have stolen something from an unlocked truck months prior. The interesting thing about that is that theft is also NOT a felony, even if he had done it, unless the item in question has a value of greater than $500. That's Georgia law, I didn't write it.

If the item in question has a value of greater than $500, then it COULD be a felony, but Georgia code specifically states it is for the judge to decide to charge it as a felony or not.

Since Arbery had not been arrested and they were not in court, neither of the two killers was the judge, therefore; they have no legal standing to decide if the theft...again assuming he even did it...was a felony.

Because they ha no probable suspicion that he committed a felony, the attempt at a citizens arrest itself was illegal.



They had no legal grounds in the State of Georgia to even attempt a citizens arrest, therefore, the underlying actions were illegal. Ergo, Arbery acted in straight up self-defense.



Well, most of the people interested in a so-called, "Genuine debate," happen to be racists...but there are a few (such as yourself) who are not. Approaching him and outnumbering him with deadly firearms when he was no immediate physical threat to anyone is pretty clearly ridiculous. Also, they had no grounds to attempt a citizens arrest.



They can follow them all they want to, they're in a truck. Should they have tried to stop him? No. Would they have tried to stop him if he was white? Maybe, but not brandishing weapons as they were.

He also didn't, "Break in," to a construction site because there was no breaking of anything. He walked into a construction site.

They could theoretically have suspected burglary, which would be a felony and make a citizens arrest legal...except he didn't take anything and there's no way for anyone to know whether he intended to take anything or not. Georgia law is weird in that you don't actually have to take or attempt to take in order to commit burglary, just have the intent to take. We could ask him if he intended to take anything, except he's dead.

Anyway, that's pretty much going to be the best case they can make as having grounds for a citizens arrest. Perhaps fortunately for the pair, I believe the Law Firm of Ku, Klux and Klan PLLC is on the case.



It's not racist to make logical objections. It's not even racist to make illogical objections, at least, not always. It's pretty cut and dry. His criminal past is irrelevant, and assumes that the pair who killed him would even know who he was to know about his criminal past. They had no reason to have a probable suspicion that he committed a felony, and therefore, no grounds to attempt a citizens arrest.



I appreciate you taking the time to make a detailed rebuttle.
There is a lot to respond to here, and I will make a more detailed response tonight.

But, I want to show the raw footage of the incident (which is hard to find since most news segments cut out crucial pieces).
https://youtu.be/VzPL82QxCks

It is not great video, and during a key area the camera vered off. It was filmed by a 3rd party who was not involved and was filming while driving after seeing the commotion from my understanding.

But, the video shows shouting. Then Arbery rushes the man with the firearm and shots are fired while they are fighting over the gun...

This is not a clear cut case.

You make a lot of great points which I will respond to tonight, its hard to do a proper response on a phone.

But, yes my sarcasm was intentional because that is the narrative being pushed, and it was meant to contrast the rest of the post. People are saying since he studied electrical engineering in college he was maybe interested in inspecting the construction site... Maybe... Or maybe because he has a long history of stealing he was interested in scoping out a soft target? Again, I am open to change my views.

Also, its a bit unfair the way you summarize me saying if I don't know if the killing was justified (when the initial prosecutor said it was)... So it's not clear cut... There are a lot of aspects to this, and very possibly every party involved behaved badly and made poor decisions.
May 21st, 2020 at 10:37:09 AM permalink
Tanko
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 0
Posts: 1964
Quote: Gandler
Or maybe because he has a long history of stealing he was interested in scoping out a soft target?


Arbery’s family believes this is him the visiting the construction site on five occasions. Other people visited the site as well.

According to the owner, nothing was ever taken from the property.

The owner’s attorney believes the man in the video may have gone there for a drink of water.

If he visited construction site without authorization, it would be up to the owner of the property to press charges for trespass. Otherwise, there is no crime.

GA DPF authorizations are similar to those in NYS.

Since Arbery was not an armed fleeing felon, the police would not have been authorized to use DPF against him.

He did not commit any crime at all.

Buford and his inbred brother/son/cousin Butthead, said they were trying to make a citizens arrest. They were not authorized to do this. Arbery did not commit an offense in their presence. They had no knowledge of whether or not he in fact committed any offense.
May 21st, 2020 at 11:03:45 AM permalink
Mission146
Administrator
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 4147
Quote: Gandler
I appreciate you taking the time to make a detailed rebuttle.
There is a lot to respond to here, and I will make a more detailed response tonight.

But, I want to show the raw footage of the incident (which is hard to find since most news segments cut out crucial pieces).
https://youtu.be/VzPL82QxCks

It is not great video, and during a key area the camera vered off. It was filmed by a 3rd party who was not involved and was filming while driving after seeing the commotion from my understanding.

But, the video shows shouting. Then Arbery rushes the man with the firearm and shots are fired while they are fighting over the gun...

This is not a clear cut case.

You make a lot of great points which I will respond to tonight, its hard to do a proper response on a phone.

But, yes my sarcasm was intentional because that is the narrative being pushed, and it was meant to contrast the rest of the post. People are saying since he studied electrical engineering in college he was maybe interested in inspecting the construction site... Maybe... Or maybe because he has a long history of stealing he was interested in scoping out a soft target? Again, I am open to change my views.

Also, its a bit unfair the way you summarize me saying if I don't know if the killing was justified (when the initial prosecutor said it was)... So it's not clear cut... There are a lot of aspects to this, and very possibly every party involved behaved badly and made poor decisions.


If you watch the video between 23-25 seconds while continuously pausing, or on slow speed, it looks like the first shot comes from the guy in the truck bed and hits a tree. At this point, Arbery appears as though he had already started to run around the front of the truck towards the other guy, but I'm not sure what action you expect him to be taking there.

Probably the guy in the back of the truck intended it as a warning shot, but for obvious reasons, that's going to cause Arbery to either attack or double down on his attack, which he does. Unfortunately, the back and forth yelling is pretty unintelligible, if it was even back and forth.

Even then, what would you or they expect Arbery to do? Run past them and present his back to them? You've already got Jethro and Cleatus out there attempting an unlawful detainment and Arbery likely unaware that he now has the benefit of a witness if they were to shoot him in the back...not that having a witness would make him any more inclined to get shot in the back. He probably figures...and keep in mind he's having to make a split second decision...that his choices are to either fight or get gunned down.

Let's be honest, it is Georgia. Racism capital of the entire Universe. Here in Pennsylvania, Arbery might have actually stopped at their request because he'd consider it less likely that he be gunned down in broad daylight, but I obviously can't say for sure.

For one thing, Arbery didn't even look too concerned about them until they whipped out the artillery. From 13-17 seconds, it looks like the guy on the ground is leaning into the truck via the driver's side, when the camera comes back around, the guy on the ground now has a weapon and has clearly created some distance between himself and the door of the truck. I can't tell if the guy in the back had a weapon the whole time or not. I tend to doubt it, or at least doubt Arbery saw it if he did, because why keep running that way?

Anyway, it's a pretty clear setup, in my opinion, based on the actions of the guy on the ground. Until Arbery gets close to the truck, he doesn't act at all interested in those guys and probably figures they are there for reasons unrelated to him.

I had no idea that he studied electrical engineering; I was just remarking that some people find construction sites interesting, in general. Again, without the guys in the truck knowing his history, his criminal history is irrelevant as it would not inform Cleatus and Jethro's actions.

The initial prosecutor is an idiot, which is certainly not your fault. I'm sorry if you took offense.

If I wanted to look at it in the light most favorable to the pair, as favorably as I possibly can, here is what I would say:

1.) The only crime that has been confirmed in the several weeks leading up to this was the theft of a firearm from an unlocked vehicle which is both: Not necessarily a felony AND a case of ridiculously irresponsible gun ownership. And you wonder why some on the far left clamor for weapons bans. I don't, but your weapon should be secure at all times.

2.) They could have, easily enough, just followed him to wherever he was going while keeping the cops posted as to his location. If the cops want to come and address it, then that's for the cops to decide.

3.) I guess Burglary is going to fall flat on its face, they definitely didn't suspect him of that, check out the 911 call:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK83dccqdhQ

Go to 40 seconds:

"And, you said someone is breaking into it right now?"

"No, it's almost open. It's under construction."

---So, bye bye suspicion of burglary. No breaking + nothing taken = No burglary.

4.) My guess is they probably didn't actually intend to kill him. They either:

A.) Wanted to keep him in place or take him to the police station.

OR:

B.) Wanted to intimidate him.

5.) Both of the things in #4 are crimes because they had no grounds...and now it turns out by their own admission...for making a citizens arrest. They had no reason to believe that he had committed a felony of any kind, much less actually witnessing a felony.

6.) Because #5, the attempted detainment essentially becomes assault...which gives Arbery the right to self-defense. So, he's defending himself against an illegal act being conducted against him and they killed him as a result of said illegal act.

At a minimum, I would think Involuntary Manslaughter, which has a maximum sentence of ten years unless charged as a Misdemeanor. Let's hope they get felony Involuntary Manslaughter as there might not be riots if the pair gets at least ten years.
"War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen..let us give them all they want." William T. Sherman
May 21st, 2020 at 11:51:44 AM permalink
JCW09
Member since: Aug 27, 2018
Threads: 12
Posts: 847
Mission makes some good points and trust me, if you know the law, The McMichael's are both going to be convicted or plea to felonies. Anyone want the other side of the guilty of felony bet? I don't need any more information to be willing to take action on the outcome for the McMichael's.
Def. of Liar - "A Person Who Tells Lies" / "I lied. Deal with it" - ams288
May 21st, 2020 at 3:41:11 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: Mission146
If you watch the video between 23-25 seconds while continuously pausing, or on slow speed, it looks like the first shot comes from the guy in the truck bed and hits a tree. At this point, Arbery appears as though he had already started to run around the front of the truck towards the other guy, but I'm not sure what action you expect him to be taking there.


If it were me and I was unarmed I would do one of two things. Calmly talk them out of it. Or run away. I would not run towards two armed men. There is no way that is ending well for anyone.

Quote: Mission146
Probably the guy in the back of the truck intended it as a warning shot, but for obvious reasons, that's going to cause Arbery to either attack or double down on his attack, which he does. Unfortunately, the back and forth yelling is pretty unintelligible, if it was even back and forth.

Even then, what would you or they expect Arbery to do? Run past them and present his back to them? You've already got Jethro and Cleatus out there attempting an unlawful detainment and Arbery likely unaware that he now has the benefit of a witness if they were to shoot him in the back...not that having a witness would make him any more inclined to get shot in the back. He probably figures...and keep in mind he's having to make a split second decision...that his choices are to either fight or get gunned down.


I mean I get your point fight or flight. But, I have been in some pretty tense situations. And, being aggressive is almost never the answer.

If you are outgunned you retreat. Charging a man with a shotgun on the ground, and a man with a rifle mounted on the bed of the truck is never going to go well. I don't know what he was even thinking would happen? Did he think he could win?

The trick is to have the training to think logically in strenuous circumstances. You need to be able to process multiple levels of behavior and outcomes very fast. But, you don't need a PhD in Strategic Planning to know that charging a man with a shotgun on the ground, while a mounted rifle man covers him is not going to end well for you. Maybe he acted on instinct and fight took over. We don't know. But, there is no way he should have engaged two hostile armed men who both can easily take him out.

At the end of the day being polite and calm can escalate many situations even when weapons are involved. Being aggressive and rash almost never produces a positive result for either side. I know that is easy to say, but I have been in my fair share of aggressive confrontations, and I always keep my cool, and it so far as always work. Aggression breads aggression, if somebody is coming at your all agro with a knife or a gun, and you calmly express yourself and your intentions, you can easily defuse a situation, especially with rational actors. These two men from what I can tell, were not some deranged meth heads hunting people for fun, they thought they were doing the right thing (many will disagree), a calming explanation while maintaining firm composure could have prevented this.
If they unlawfully stopped you (quite possible) settle is later with criminal and civil charges, don't attack them. This should have been resolved in a court room with all parties alive, instead of how it turned out...…

Quote: Mission146
Let's be honest, it is Georgia. Racism capital of the entire Universe. Here in Pennsylvania, Arbery might have actually stopped at their request because he'd consider it less likely that he be gunned down in broad daylight, but I obviously can't say for sure.


This statement I take the most umbrage with. GA is one of the most diverse States in the country (many ranks above PA by the way)….. I live in a super diverse community, everyone gets along. Are there potentially rural areas in GA where there are some nasties still around? Probably. But, there were in NJ as well, and I am sure PA has just as many (if not more)…. Racist capital of the universe? That is just false. For one, just about every GCC country would take that cake in a heart beat...…. GA is not racist.... No more than any other state... But, worldwide? Please, look at the Middle East or Japan...…. Or many other countries that have policies specifically designed to favor their native race....

If you are speaking of just states here is an interesting graph I just found by Googling most racist state:
https://awario.com/blog/most-racist-states-social-listening-study/

(GA is pretty low, far lower than PA). They judge the level of racism by hate group activity and racist tweets flagged from each state.... The north has a lot of closet racists. I grew up in NJ, supposedly liberal paradise of the East Coast , all white school, people were very progressive on paper, but when it came to integrating other regions into the school? Well you know how it goes....

Sorry the South is not as racist as you seem to think. In fact it empirically is more diverse and culturally mixed than most of the north....

By the way I am against confederate flags (the treason flag) and confederate monuments, so please don't gaslight me into that category. But, the South can be empirically defended for diversity, especially in metro areas....

I have described myself as a nationalist, but not a racist (confusing terminology to some), I love America, and I support and work side by side any American. America is strong because of our diversity and we need to embrace that to become one nation and put racial identities aside. I know due to history this will take time, I am also a realist, there has been a terrible history in America.

Anyway that is my defense of the South (I love it, especially the coastal South), and I love the people, if you hate it, well that is your right.

Quote: Mission146
For one thing, Arbery didn't even look too concerned about them until they whipped out the artillery. From 13-17 seconds, it looks like the guy on the ground is leaning into the truck via the driver's side, when the camera comes back around, the guy on the ground now has a weapon and has clearly created some distance between himself and the door of the truck. I can't tell if the guy in the back had a weapon the whole time or not. I tend to doubt it, or at least doubt Arbery saw it if he did, because why keep running that way?

Anyway, it's a pretty clear setup, in my opinion, based on the actions of the guy on the ground. Until Arbery gets close to the truck, he doesn't act at all interested in those guys and probably figures they are there for reasons unrelated to him.



You could be right, its hard to see exactly. I am sure the trial and investigation will uncover more concrete chain of events based on witness and other recording available that we may not know of yet. Like I said, I am open minded. I am trying to show that there is more than one side to this story. It is not a clear cut case of racism in GA.


Quote: Mission146
I had no idea that he studied electrical engineering; I was just remarking that some people find construction sites interesting, in general. Again, without the guys in the truck knowing his history, his criminal history is irrelevant as it would not inform Cleatus and Jethro's actions.


Well yes and no. If he matched the description of past criminals and they saw him wandering a construction site, maybe.

You are right they don't know his history (unless it turns out that they did, being a former police officer, he has ways to track who he can be)…..
But, for us , we know that he was almost certainly up to no good. And, no, that does not mean he deserves to be shot.....

Quote: Mission146
The initial prosecutor is an idiot, which is certainly not your fault. I'm sorry if you took offense.

If I wanted to look at it in the light most favorable to the pair, as favorably as I possibly can, here is what I would say:

1.) The only crime that has been confirmed in the several weeks leading up to this was the theft of a firearm from an unlocked vehicle which is both: Not necessarily a felony AND a case of ridiculously irresponsible gun ownership. And you wonder why some on the far left clamor for weapons bans. I don't, but your weapon should be secure at all times.

2.) They could have, easily enough, just followed him to wherever he was going while keeping the cops posted as to his location. If the cops want to come and address it, then that's for the cops to decide.

3.) I guess Burglary is going to fall flat on its face, they definitely didn't suspect him of that, check out the 911 call:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK83dccqdhQ

Go to 40 seconds:

"And, you said someone is breaking into it right now?"

"No, it's almost open. It's under construction."

---So, bye bye suspicion of burglary. No breaking + nothing taken = No burglary.

4.) My guess is they probably didn't actually intend to kill him. They either:

A.) Wanted to keep him in place or take him to the police station.

OR:

B.) Wanted to intimidate him.

5.) Both of the things in #4 are crimes because they had no grounds...and now it turns out by their own admission...for making a citizens arrest. They had no reason to believe that he had committed a felony of any kind, much less actually witnessing a felony.

6.) Because #5, the attempted detainment essentially becomes assault...which gives Arbery the right to self-defense. So, he's defending himself against an illegal act being conducted against him and they killed him as a result of said illegal act.

At a minimum, I would think Involuntary Manslaughter, which has a maximum sentence of ten years unless charged as a Misdemeanor. Let's hope they get felony Voluntary Manslaughter as there might not be riots if the pair gets at least ten years.



You may be right. I have said in my non-expert opinion that Zimmerman probably would have been found guilty of manslaughter, but the murder charges were too over the top. If they go for murder, I am guessing it will be a similar outcome. But, again, a lot still remains to be seen.


But, two things are certain:

1. Arbery is not a perfect citizen (yes none of us are, certainly not me), but he especially has a very checkered past and never reacts well when confronted (based on the two incidents that the public can view body cam of.....) I am sorry, but this shows that he has aggressive inclinations. If he is willing to go at polite cops like that, imagine what he does when confronted by citizens? ……

2. Nobody should be dead. It is a tragedy. But, I am not comfortable calling it murder until more is uncovered. At most I would maybe be willing to go to manslaughter and whatever its called in GA for illegally detaining somebody (some legal term for it)….. But, again, more will need to come out.


I am 100% certain they were not wanting to kill him, there is no way they would be on the phone with 911..... This was not some racist hunt with rednecks in pickup trucks with shotguns like people are portraying it on my side of the isle.
May 21st, 2020 at 3:44:35 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Quote: JCW09
Mission makes some good points and trust me, if you know the law, The McMichael's are both going to be convicted or plea to felonies. Anyone want the other side of the guilty of felony bet? I don't need any more information to be willing to take action on the outcome for the McMichael's.



I don't bet on such things. But, it ultimately depends on what they are charged with.

I don't think murder charges will stick. Some felony charges may.

It looks like (based on what I can find publicly) they are currently being charged with murder and aggravated assault. I can see the assault charges sticking, the murder I would guess not (again a lot will be determined in the coming weeks of what gets released)…..

So if you are saying they will probably at some point get a felony (of any kind), I would agree that is very likely..... If you are specifying murder, less likely....
May 21st, 2020 at 4:40:16 PM permalink
Gandler
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 27
Posts: 4236
Apparantly the guy filming from his car was just arrested on murder charges. Odd since he was supposedly an unrelated party.

https://abc13.com/ahmaud-arbery-larry-english-mcmichael-crump/6202460/


Also, strange, because without his footage none of this would exist...
May 21st, 2020 at 4:52:56 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Gandler
Apparantly the guy filming from his car was just arrested on murder charges. Odd since he was supposedly an unrelated party.

https://abc13.com/ahmaud-arbery-larry-english-mcmichael-crump/6202460/


Also, strange, because without his footage none of this would exist...


That will be hard to make stick unless he came with them. Murder requires premeditation.
The President is a fink.
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