Is Math Racist?

Quote: Wizard

I couldn't take more than about 30 seconds of that video. So, let's go to the question posted to me at WoV.



In 1989/1990 I went back to school to get a teaching credential for high school math. One of the professors mentioned how in California there were laws that textbooks for public schools had to be balanced in terms of representing the different races and genders. This was not easy for math books. You may recall how they would have callout boxes with information about famous mathematicians.

Call me racist if you wish, but it was and is a challenge for the bookmakers to find any famous mathematicians who were not white males. They had to resort to names like Benjamin Banneker.

Onto the question at hand -- "Do you think it possible the math is taught in such a way that these students have less of a chance, that there might be a way to teach it that is neutral towards ethnicity, that just isn't being done?"

My answer is a firm NO. I could talk at length about good and bad ways to teach math, but the various methods cut equally by race. I think if black and brown students aren't doing well at math maybe they should look in the mirror before blaming the white man. Do they study as hard as white and Asian students? Are they as respectful of the teacher? Do they have similar levels of discipline problems?

Somebody might make the point that maybe their schools in general are not as good. That would be a fair point. When I'm in charge I'll address that problem by making private school vouchers available to all. If I can't achieve that, I'll at least push magnet schools, to add more competition between public schools, as we do here in Las Vegas. This way, the best students, regardless of race, can bubble up with the best schools.

Did you ever see the movie "Stand and Deliver"? based on a true story.

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Escalante himself described the film as "90% truth, 10% drama". He said that several points were left out of the film. He pointed out that no student who did not know multiplication tables or fractions was ever taught calculus in a single year.

Quote: Wizard

I couldn't take more than about 30 seconds of that video.  So, let's go to the question posted to me at WoV.

Thank you, I was hoping you would. 

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In 1989/1990 I went back to school to get a teaching credential for high school math.  One of the professors mentioned how in California there were laws that textbooks for public schools had to be balanced in terms of representing the different races and genders.  This was not easy for math books.  You may recall how they would have callout boxes with information about famous mathematicians.  

Call me racist if you wish,....

that lady in the video would not hesitate to do so LOL 

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... but it was and is a challenge for the bookmakers to find any famous mathematicians who were not white males.  They had to resort to names like Benjamin Banneker. 

Interesting. Such things do seem to reassure Af/Am students from my observations [yes I did go to school with them] but no one was fooled into thinking there was no manipulation going on either. In the end it matters little to the question at hand, as you put it. 

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Onto the question at hand -- "Do you think it possible the math is taught in such a way that these students have less of a chance, that there might be a way to teach it that is neutral towards ethnicity, that just isn't being done?"


My answer is a firm NO.  I could talk at length about good and bad ways to teach math, but the various methods cut equally by race.  I think if black and brown students aren't doing well at math maybe they should look in the mirror before blaming the white man.  Do they study as hard as white and Asian students?  Are they as respectful of the teacher?  Do they have similar levels of discipline problems?

No thoughtful person posting here is likely comfortable with the idea that one race should *naturally* learn math more readily than another, certainly not to the level we continue to see, evidently. I think it is largely a matter of the unforgiving nature of trying to learn any difficult discipline if there is anything going on to distract you. An example would be taking a math course from that lady in the video. You'd learn a lot about 'Angela Davis math' though I guess. But more common examples would be distractions like these:

*dysfunctional home life
*just getting to school is a prob
*peers urging skipping class all the time
*deciding being good at math is 'acting white'
*consequences for 'acting white'
*a development of 'getting bummed' about school generally
*finding other classes pass you without much work

Getting into a remedial condition in math is disastrous, just as deadly as trying to learn a language new to you and showing up in the second year class after learning little in the first. Such a person finds himself in a complete mire, constantly mystified by the words and symbols about him. Math has a parallel to this.

Remedial students though often have to be tolerated, which can be disastrous for everyone else, one reason the magnet schools you mention next are so desirable for the better students. 

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Somebody might make the point that maybe their schools in general are not as good.  That would be a fair point.  When I'm in charge I'll address that problem by making private school vouchers available to all.  If I can't achieve that, I'll at least push magnet schools, to add more competition between public schools, as we do here in Las Vegas.  This way, the best students, regardless of race, can bubble up with the best schools.

Yet, to show they really don't give a hoot, the pols will often shoot these ideas down

Quote: Mission146

If the private schools look better in terms of metrics such as SAT scores, it's only because a greater percentage of the students are not academically disadvantaged, so any comparison to public schools (which literally have to take everyone) are not exactly apples for apples.

Public schools are also not a monopoly because they are not a for-profit enterprise. As far as Federal money going to public schools, I don't think any Federal money should go to any schools whatsoever, so that's a moot point anyway.

If this were true then why do the same school districts keep ranking at the top for SAT scores year after year? To paraphrase, "Are they the luckiest school districts on the face of the earth?" While they can be selective, they cannot be so selective as to limit their viability. IMHO what most sets them apart is they can get rid of bad teachers and they do not put up with nonsense in class, bad students get booted. In another age the bad students got sent to "reform school" where they were taught in tough conditions, often to just kill time until they dropped out or got expelled.

Profit is not required to be a monopoly. The USPS is a monopoly and it is set up to not make a regular profit. Just one example.

Quote: Wizard

My answer is a firm NO. I could talk at length about good and bad ways to teach math, but the various methods cut equally by race. I think if black and brown students aren't doing well at math maybe they should look in the mirror before blaming the white man. Do they study as hard as white and Asian students? Are they as respectful of the teacher? Do they have similar levels of discipline problems?

Somebody might make the point that maybe their schools in general are not as good. That would be a fair point. When I'm in charge I'll address that problem by making private school vouchers available to all. If I can't achieve that, I'll at least push magnet schools, to add more competition between public schools, as we do here in Las Vegas. This way, the best students, regardless of race, can bubble up with the best schools.

Can't say that better myself. I did not know Vegas had some form of school choice. Is Clark County just one big district.

OTOH, if we were not letting fear of being called racist blind us so much we might be able to find out if some groups are just better at math than some other groups. Some people clearly are. We really would do well to find out why this is.

I wonder if the example and influence of other people in your family etc who are competent in math, have used it around you, shown you the benefits of being good at it, etc. , if that example and influence isn't extremely critical in learning math as opposed to something else. I can't tell you how common it was for students who wanted to quit taking math to complain "i'm never going to use this stuff", back in my day

Quote: AZDuffman

If this were true then why do the same school districts keep ranking at the top for SAT scores year after year? To paraphrase, "Are they the luckiest school districts on the face of the earth?" While they can be selective, they cannot be so selective as to limit their viability. IMHO what most sets them apart is they can get rid of bad teachers and they do not put up with nonsense in class, bad students get booted. In another age the bad students got sent to "reform school" where they were taught in tough conditions, often to just kill time until they dropped out or got expelled.

Profit is not required to be a monopoly. The USPS is a monopoly and it is set up to not make a regular profit. Just one example.

Well, which school districts are they and are they in an economically advantaged area? I don't know that money is causation for a stable home life for a child, but I'm nearly certain that there's going to be more than zero correlation to be found.

The USPS is not a monopoly at all, and even if they were, they're a monopoly to their own financial detriment. In addition to having to deliver to remote locations, they also have to deal with various legislation, Federal pay and retirement standards...etc.

Quote: odiousgambit

I wonder if the example and influence of other people in your family etc who are competent in math, have used it around you, shown you the benefits of being good at it, etc. , if that example and influence isn't extremely critical in learning math as opposed to something else. I can't tell you how common it was for students who wanted to quit taking math to complain "i'm never going to use this stuff", back in my day

It was common, 'Back in my day,' as well. Even then, I would say, "This is probably the only thing you're going to learn today that might be practically useful to you at some point."

I can't remember the last time that I fired off a historical date that I had to memorize (and probably don't even remember anymore), the last time I used chemistry, the last time I needed to speak French or Spanish (has never happened), the last time I built something out of wood, the last time I did an art project, the last time I sang in a choir, the last time plant biology was useful to me (never), the last time that World Geography knowledge has had any practical function for me (never) and I could probably think of more completely useless classes if I put my mind to it.

What classes were useful?:

Reading/Language Arts/English/Composition/Creative Writing
Math Related Courses
Computer Science Courses & Typing

What the hell do you even need History and Civics classes for if you're capable of critical thinking and know how to do research on a computer? Those classes should be fully incorporated into computer sciences, but as I understand it, some schools are transitioning to using either computers or tablets for basically everything in most classrooms---which I see as a positive and useful development.

Quote: Mission146

Well, which school districts are they and are they in an economically advantaged area? I don't know that money is causation for a stable home life for a child, but I'm nearly certain that there's going to be more than zero correlation to be found.

The USPS is not a monopoly at all, and even if they were, they're a monopoly to their own financial detriment. In addition to having to deliver to remote locations, they also have to deal with various legislation, Federal pay and retirement standards...etc.

USPS is absolutely a monopoly by law. Nobody else may deliver first class mail, as well as several other classes.

As to which school districts mine was a good example. When I went there it was very middle of the road economically. A few rich kids and a few hillbillies. It always ranked high. While I agree there is more than zero correlation there are plenty of school districts spending way more per student but getting bad results. Usually these are the big cities such as Chicago.

Money does not bring the stable home life as much as the stable home life brings money. Single motherhood is about the biggest driver of poverty and juvenile crime that we have. Then if feeds on itself to cause another generation of it. The USA has backed itself into a huge corner here.

To me it is not the money in the schools, it is that we are using a schooling method that has not been updated in 150 years. We have urban schools that they have just let get out of hand. Even country schools. I told the story of the prom I worked where the teacher said they had good kids. So good that there was a metal detector and guard with a Glock 9mm sidearm.

Edumucation ain't no longer impotent.

Just come to Las Vegas where lots of people without an education are making $100k.

So long ago.... Mike reminded me it is ‘pi’ day. In high school, I was captain of our math team! I had an artistic friend who designed T shirts... we were the Bayside Radicals, (imagine the word Bayside under a radical symbol). As captain, my number in the back was ‘pi’. In the NYC finals one year I came in 4th place. They listed the top 10 finishers. The other 9 were, by name, all likely Chinese. I just took it as culturally, they put an emphasis on math more than ‘the rest of us’. If there was a ‘science’ team I would bet Jews would have been disproportionately listed. Because certain cultures value certain things more than others, does that make them racist?

As far as the public/private school discussion.... when I moved to Buffalo we specifically moved into the town with the ‘best’ schools. Even so, when it came time, our kids went to private schools. Were there ‘challenging’ kids in the private schools? Hell yeah! I’m sure not as much as public schools. But the one thing that separated the private school kids from the public school kids was (predominantly, but not always), that the PARENTS cared more about school. Forking out $$,$$$ a year that you could have gotten for free (usually) tells that the parents have a large interest in their kids’ education.