Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I have seen Christianity vindicated time after time in the lives of so many people who have changed for the better in ways that all the alternatives failed to do.

The same can be said of other religions, various forms of therapy, some cults and even dangerous nonsense like Scientology. Also of self-help books, and people finding their own solutions, and talking to friends, online message boards, etc. etc.

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Be careful not to conflate the existence of deities or specific deities with the existence of God.

The god of the Bible is no different in principle from the thousands of other gods imagined by earlier and, for that matter, later cultures around the world.

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This discussion has everything to do with proposing a best possible solution to the question of why there is something rather than nothing?

We don't know yet. we may never know. Saying "because the Hidden Gods of Egypt created the universe," is not an explanation. Even if it were, how do you prove it?

Quote: Dalex64

Clearly an opinion, and one which is not shared by the majority of the scientific community. They don't accept that answer and are looking for one they find to be more satisfactory to them. In the absence of proof that this is the correct answer, they still look for an answer which they can prove.

The scientific community are not theologians and the question of God is not their purview. How could science proclaim there is a God or that there isn't? As you mention they deal with things that can be proven by observation and testing. However, there are many things that can be known without being proven in that way. This is why philosophy, theology, ethics, and in some ways the arts exist.

Quote: FrGamble

In the place of those leaving organized religion are those who claim to be "spiritual" as in "I am spiritual, but not religious." I'd rather they just became atheists, it's easier to get them back that way.

The vast majority of atheists were not religious
at one time. Most people who quit a religion
find a milder form of it somewhere, like you
say, in 'spirituality'.

I try and keep the 'gods existence' question
basic. If there was a god, it would be apparent
to everybody and it's not. Far from it. This
points to a couple obvious conclusions. There
is no god. Or, if there is, he's not what you think
he is. He hides; he's tricky; he favors some people
over others; he's petulant and jealous; he answers
only the few prayers he feels like answering. He
makes you think he's hiding around the next
corner and never is. He makes you think
he wants a relationship with you and the opposite
is true. He sends out many false prophets.

I just realized I'm describing the Christian god, oops.
I guess that because god is not readily apparent to
everyone, the conclusion is he doesn't exist.

Quote: Nareed

The same can be said of other religions, various forms of therapy, some cults and even dangerous nonsense like Scientology. Also of self-help books, and people finding their own solutions, and talking to friends, online message boards, etc. etc.

good point. I guess the difference is Christianity is true.

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The god of the Bible is no different in principle from the thousands of other gods imagined by earlier and, for that matter, later cultures around the world.

You and EvenBob have unsuccessfully tried to point out many times (remember his now abandoned list of supposed similarities between Jesus and Horus)that Jesus is a warmed up myth from the Egyptians. However, His historical personhood, the fullness of the Incarnation, the Trinity, the completeness of His sacrifice, His message of service and forgiveness, His instance to care for the poor and those in need, His rejection of worldly power and embrace of poverty, all of these things and more separate Him and make Jesus Christ and Christianity unique and different in principle from every other religion previous and since. This is not to say there are not other similarities, but let's not forget about these huge differences.

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We don't know yet. we may never know. Saying "because the Hidden Gods of Egypt created the universe," is not an explanation. Even if it were, how do you prove it?

"We don't know" is only an answer a scientist would give to a question that they realize they have no way of knowing. A more honest scientist would say, "For that answer my friend you need to speak to a philosopher or a theologian." You might then respond, "But they have no way of proving they are right!" The scientist would reply, "Observation and testing, scientific or mathematical proofs, these are not the only ways that we come to knowledge of what is true and right."

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe you could present some evidence for why you think creation is not created?

My beliefs are not facts. For some reason
your beliefs also have to be facts, I don't
know why. If my beliefs were provable facts,
they wouldn't be beliefs anymore. You're
always on a constant jihad of trying to prove
all your beliefs are factually true. Why is that?
Doesn't it fly in face of what religion is all
about?

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So why don't you present a reason, any reason or evidence as to why you think a cockroach is as important as a human person? Leave your atheist myth out of it too.

I'm not being purposely obtuse, but how could
I possibly be more important in
a world where nothing is more important
than anything else unless we make it so?

And atheism is not a myth, it's not anything.

Quote: FrGamble

The scientist would reply, "Observation and testing, scientific or mathematical proofs, these are not the only ways that we come to knowledge of what is true and right."

It's the way we arrive at facts. There are no
scientific communities based on belief and
conjecture. Those communities are called
religions. Once a belief is proved to be a
fact, it's not a belief anymore. A lot of people
believed the world was flat. When proven
it was round, that belief went away.

When god is proven to exist, conversations
like these will disappear. I'm not holding my
breath.

Quote: Evenbob

If my beliefs were provable facts,
they wouldn't be beliefs anymore.

Why do you say this? Shouldn't your beliefs be grounded in truth and facts? From these facts belief rises. Again you are trying to subject higher truths to the science of earthly realities. A religion or belief system not founded on facts has no true foundation.

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Doesn't it fly in face of what religion is all
about?

This demonstrates a serious misunderstanding about what religion is all about.

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I'm not being purposely obtuse, but how could
I possibly be more important in
a world where nothing is more important
than anything else unless we make it so?

I don't know if you are being obtuse or just silly. The only possible way we could make a bug equal to a human is if we make it so, because every fiber in your being should be screaming to you that based on everything from common sense to nature it is obvious that we are more important. If anything has every been made up by us it is the crazy idea that in the world nothing is more important than anything else.

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And atheism is not a myth, it's not anything.

It's worse than nothing, it is false and dangerous. But before Dalex jumps in that is my opinion.

Quote: Evenbob

. A lot of people
believed the world was flat.

These people you refer to were called scientists. When they did more testing and observations they found out they were wrong. This is how science works and how it improves our knowledge of the world.

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When god is proven to exist, conversations
like these will disappear. I'm not holding my
breath.

I won't be holding my breath either because science cannot ever prove or disprove God's existence. Can you imagine how that would be possible? To see God in a microscope or a telescope perhaps? To see before the beginning of all things before there was matter or energy - what would there be to observe? Conversations like this will continue forever, until the Lord returns, because this is the way the truth about God is discovered by debate, discussion, argument, philosophy, shared experiences, shared doubts, frustrations, joys. The question of God will not be answered in a petri dish, there is a better chance of this problem being solved on an online forum.

Quote: FrGamble

Why do you say this? Shouldn't your beliefs be grounded in truth and facts? From these facts belief rises.

They are called beliefs because facts don't
back them up. What are you talking about?
Planes fly not because we believe they can,
but because we can 100% back it up with
facts that they have to fly. Flight is not a
cult or a religion.

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This demonstrates a serious misunderstanding about what religion is all about.

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun: religion
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Belief being the key word here. You don't believe
in facts, they stand alone. A fact is a fact, a belief is
not fact.

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crazy idea that in the world nothing is more important than anything else.
.

How could any one thing be more important
than any other one thing. To suggest otherwise
would mean existence has an ulterior motive,
which it obviously doesn't. If it did, we would
know what it is, and we don't. When you realize
everything is of equal importance, it changes
you. The world makes sense all of a sudden.

Unlike religions, which make no sense at all.

Quote: FrGamble

science cannot ever prove or disprove God's existence.

Yes, we know. But you think you can
by constantly saying god is a fact, like
that makes it true.

It doesn't. It's your belief, and I would have
no argument with you if you stated it that
way. But you don't.