Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

That would explain why religion keeps loosing ground.

In the place of those leaving organized religion are those who claim to be "spiritual" as in "I am spiritual, but not religious." I'd rather they just became atheists, it's easier to get them back that way.

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Logically it leads towards: we don't know, and more observations and research are needed in order to find out.

Granted we always need further research and observations, but surely you believe we should make some hypotheses or come to some best solution or theory that explains our observations so far.

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No, my humorous comment about quantum mechanics does. Virtual particles are a real phenomena.

Thanks to you I read some about 'virtual particles' and my brain is leaking from my ears. By the way I have some time on my hands because I am very sick and staying home for a couple of days. You are right particles that seem to progress backwards in time, do not conserve energy, and travel faster than the speed of light sounds pretty crazy. Again like dark matter they cannot be observed directly but their effects can be. Why are you so sure that they are true and not the newest phlogiston.

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You're not. I can believe that. But plenty of people expect me to fall to my knees when they bring up any so-called miracle. it's as though their faith and their faith alone contains such claims.

I'm just curious have you ever seen the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Quote: FrGamble

Your very good and informative post about dark matter makes it clear that you are at least sympathetic towards those who use evidence to suggest the best possible solution even if that solution cannot be seen or proved outright.

I'm saying what seems the logical, sensible solution may not be.

Newton's theories worked so well, that no one imagined they could be incomplete until they were presented with an extreme case. Einstein's general relativity works very well, too.

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Maybe 'dark matter' doesn't exist,

Oh, it very likely does. I just don't discount the possibility we may all be wrong about the evidence pointing towards it.

Look. I wouldn't buy any shares of Dark Matter Inc. until someone produces as much as a particle of it.

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What I don't see represented in your discussion about 'dark matter' is those who out of hand reject the concept because they simply don't like the idea or those who deny that it is a least a sensible attempt to explain unmistakable evidence in the universe.

I don't dismiss something just because I don't like it. I may try to find alternatives to it, but that's not the same thing. I don't like quantum mechanics. But time after time it has been vindicated. and time after time more sensible alternatives fail to measure up. I don't like the idea of dark matter, either. But the few alternatives have been easy to refute. If someone comes up with proof of it, that settles it whether I like it or not.

This has nothing to do with the existence of deities. There's no evidence pointing towards it, no firm observations, they're not a reasonable or sensible explanation for anything. There is as much evidence for Jehovah/Jesus/Invisible Friend being a "true" deity as there is for Ist, Ueser and Horus, or for Aphrodite, Zeus, Athena, Quetzalcoatl, Thor, Woden, Melcart, Hercules, Baal, and thousands of others being "true" deities. That is to say, there is zero evidence for all of them.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm just curious have you ever seen the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe?

If you mean the original idol kept under glass, I'm not even sure where the basilica is. Somewhere in town, but not even the general area. If you mean a reproduction, well, I have eyes. It's a bit harder to avoid seeing it than seeing a campaign ad on the street.

Quote: Nareed

I'm saying what seems the logical, sensible solution may not be.

and what I am saying is that what seems the logical, sensible solution may actually be.

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Oh, it very likely does. I just don't discount the possibility we may all be wrong about the evidence pointing towards it.

Look. I wouldn't buy any shares of Dark Matter Inc. until someone produces as much as a particle of it.

That's not smart. If you believe it exists go for it and buy before everybody else does.

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I don't dismiss something just because I don't like it. I may try to find alternatives to it, but that's not the same thing. I don't like quantum mechanics. But time after time it has been vindicated. and time after time more sensible alternatives fail to measure up.

I have seen Christianity vindicated time after time in the lives of so many people who have changed for the better in ways that all the alternatives failed to do.

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This has nothing to do with the existence of deities. There's no evidence pointing towards it, no firm observations, they're not a reasonable or sensible explanation for anything.

Be careful not to conflate the existence of deities or specific deities with the existence of God. This discussion has everything to do with proposing a best possible solution to the question of why there is something rather than nothing? Based on the evidence of modern cosmology, logic, and philosophy that answer is a supernatural, non-contingent, eternal, spiritual, all-powerful, intelligent being. You might not like it but it very likely exists.

Once we arrive at this point then a discussion about the evidence supporting Jesus versus Zeus, Thor, Hercules, Baal, and the thousand other deities can be had. Compared to the question of God's existence though I think the truth of Jesus is a much easier discussion.

Quote: Nareed

If you mean the original idol kept under glass, I'm not even sure where the basilica is. Somewhere in town, but not even the general area. If you mean a reproduction, well, I have eyes. It's a bit harder to avoid seeing it than seeing a campaign ad on the street.

Ha, I heard that about Mexico City, she is everywhere. I have never seen the original icon myself. Would you be interested in going and giving a report?

Quote: FrGamble

In the place of those leaving organized religion are those who claim to be "spiritual" as in "I am spiritual, but not religious." I'd rather they just became atheists, it's easier to get them back that way.

Really? I'd no idea.

But that's really great news for my ongoing novel "Keeping Secrets." It's very spiritual, and completely rejects the Jehovah myth.

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Granted we always need further research and observations, but surely you believe we should make some hypotheses or come to some best solution or theory that explains our observations so far.

Yes. but saying any kind of evidence points toward the god(s) of the Bible is akin to saying the Big bang suggests the universe was created by unicorns.

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Thanks to you I read some about 'virtual particles' and my brain is leaking from my ears.

To quote, I think, Richard Feynman: If you think you understand quantum mechanics, that's a sure sign you do not understand quantum mechanics.

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By the way I have some time on my hands because I am very sick and staying home for a couple of days.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get well soon.

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You are right particles that seem to progress backwards in time, do not conserve energy, and travel faster than the speed of light sounds pretty crazy. Again like dark matter they cannot be observed directly but their effects can be. Why are you so sure that they are true and not the newest phlogiston.

I think we're facing a HUGE gap between what can be detected and what we can explain about it. Some times the explanations may be spot on, sometimes they may be pure vaporware.

Quote: FrGamble

Would you be interested in going and giving a report?

I mean no offense when I say this: Not even a little bit.

Religious aspects aside, I understand it tends to be very crowded. I really don't care for crowds.

Quote: FrGamble

God is the best explanation of the universe given the evidence we have.

Clearly an opinion, and one which is not shared by the majority of the scientific community. They don't accept that answer and are looking for one they find to be more satisfactory to them. In the absence of proof that this is the correct answer, they still look for an answer which they can prove.

And, obviously the truth isn't determined by how many people believe in something, for any side of an argument.

Also, please continue to "be Dalex" - it saves me the trouble and frustration. :)

Quote: FrGamble

God is the best explanation of the universe given the evidence we have.

Evidence? There is zero evidence that god
exists. AGAIN, you see what you think is a
creation so you invent a god that created
it. That's only evidence of faulty logic.

Quote: FrGamble

Can you prove to me that I or any human being is not more important than a cockroach under the sink?

The only 'evidence' you have is your god
myth told you you're important. That isn't
proof.

Quote: Evenbob

Evidence? There is zero evidence that god
exists. AGAIN, you see what you think is a
creation so you invent a god that created
it. That's only evidence of faulty logic.

Clearly no evidence you accept. Maybe you could present some evidence for why you think creation is not created? By the way from now on only accept corrections on my logic by Dalex.

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The only 'evidence' you have is your god
myth told you you're important. That isn't
proof.

No, even without mentioning God if I had to list all the reasons I think that a human being is more important than a cockroach we would be here all day. So why don't you present a reason, any reason or evidence as to why you think a cockroach is as important as a human person? Leave your atheist myth out of it too.