Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Let me stop you there, the material does contain eye witness accounts.

Unauthenticated. Therefore worthless. The NT
is just one more thing you have to take in
complete faith, there is zero corroborating
evidence for any of it. Any court would throw
it out as complete hearsay. They have actual
evidence that at least some of it was changed
again and again over the years. Just assume
that all of it was, and you're getting close to
the truth.

The NT is the most attested ancient document by leaps and bounds. Surely you are not saying that all documents from the past are just hearsay.

Quote: FrGamble

The NT is the most attested ancient document by leaps and bounds.

Really?

attested: declared to be correct, true, or genuine

Are you sure you want to stick with that? Even
the Jesus Seminar scholars affirmed very little
of what Jesus is supposed to have said was
actually said by him. The rest was made up.
Probably, as we're now learning, by Paul.

Declaring something to be correct is a far
cry from proving it correct.

Yes attested to in the larger sense of the word and in the more specific use of the term referring to how many different manuscripts from different places and different times all attest to or show the correct form of the text. This assures that it cannot be later changed or messed with to reflect some new or different idea. Many of the ancient works you would no doubt consider authentic and authorative have far fewer manuscripts that attest to its correctness or genuineness.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes attested to in the larger sense of the word and in the more specific use of the term referring to how many different manuscripts from different places and different times all attest to or show the correct form of the text. .

Only because in the time of Constantine,
they absolutely cherry picked only the
manuscripts that went along with the
story they were trying to tell. The rest,
and there were many, were discarded.

The bombshell was when the Gnostic
Gospels were found in 1945. We got
to see what a disaster the NT really
was, it was all over the place with
wild stories and urban legends. That
they managed to squeeze a religion
out of the mess was an amazing thing.

Quote: FrGamble

The NT is the most attested ancient document by leaps and bounds. Surely you are not saying that all documents from the past are just hearsay.

How many logical fallacies can you cram into two short sentences?

Some things in the bible are attested. That does not mean all things in the bible are attested.
Some things in the bible are believed to be true. That does not mean that all things in the bible are believed to be true.
Some things in the bible are corroborated, and believed to be true. That does not mean that the parts that are not corroborated are also true.
Same sentence, with attested.
Some historical documents are here-say. That does not mean that all historical documents are here-say.
Saying that the here-say stories of the bible are not true says nothing about the truth of other historical here-say documents. Those other documents may or may not have corroborating evidence.

I'll put a name on the last one - strawman - suggesting that he meant something, claiming that your recharacterization of what he said is wrong, and using that to claim that what he actually said is wrong.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. . . . Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find inducements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you."

—-Thomas Jefferson

Quote: Nareed

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. . . . Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find inducements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you."

—-Thomas Jefferson

That is an excellent quote!

Quote: FrGamble

That is an excellent quote!

Have you then reversed your belief that morality can come only from the one true god Ishtar?

Quote: Dalex64

Some things in the bible are attested. That does not mean all things in the bible are attested.

In regards to the NT it does mean that with very few exceptions every verse is attested to in many different manuscripts.

Quote:

Some things in the bible are believed to be true. That does not mean that all things in the bible are believed to be true.
Some things in the bible are corroborated, and believed to be true. That does not mean that the parts that are not corroborated are also true.
Same sentence, with attested.
Some historical documents are here-say. That does not mean that all historical documents are here-say.
Saying that the here-say stories of the bible are not true says nothing about the truth of other historical here-say documents. Those other documents may or may not have corroborating evidence.

Is this also a strawman or a reductio ad absurdum? I don't think I was saying what you are claiming above. Specifically in countering Evenbob's idea that the texts of the NT were modified or changed through the centuries the attestation we have from very ancient and diverse sources shows that this is not the case.