Original Sin?

March 11th, 2014 at 10:44:18 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Could we argue for something like original sin without using the Scriptures? Is there a tendency in all of us to be selfish or greedy or even willing to cheat if it benefits ourselves that needs to be corrected for the good of the community? For proof I offer a look at the front page of any newspaper. This way s2dbaker can finally feel comfortable reading something literally and doesn't have to worry about parts of a story being allegorical and other parts historical.
March 11th, 2014 at 10:53:08 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
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Quote: AZDuffman
Who would want to go to Heaven if it was filled with snakes?
Perhaps snakes would. Many people don't want to go to Heaven if dogs are not allowed.
March 11th, 2014 at 11:11:15 AM permalink
Fleastiff
Member since: Oct 27, 2012
Threads: 48
Posts: 4309
Quote: FrGamble
Could we argue for something like original sin without using the Scriptures? .
I don't know. Many people speak of the miracle of life or the great spirit but don't focus on the Bible. Many societies are probably unexposed to the Bible, do Samoans believe in original sin? Does the Koran recognize any sin other than not being a Moslem? Do they even have snakes in Saudi Arabia?
How come they believe in Original Sin in Ireland which has no snakes at all?
March 11th, 2014 at 11:14:06 AM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Greed exists in many forms and it's not all bad. I would not characterize it as "original sin", it's more survival instinct. Even when one does good for the community at large there is a greed motivation in that a rising tide lifts all boats. Improve your community's lot and you thereby improve your own. The problem is when greed is out of control to the extent that it harms others. Exerting the effort to steal candy from a baby clearly is not a good thing. Putting in some overtime to earn some extra money is a productive channel for greed.

I went looking for examples of greed on the front page of the NY Post and it's not proof of greed today. Closest thing was a girl died after a black market butt injection whatever that means. I'm sure that's a bad thing but I think I would classify that under original vanity.
March 11th, 2014 at 11:26:10 AM permalink
Wizard
Administrator
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Is this connection between Satan and snakes why some churches feature snake handling?

Also interesting how Christianity vilifies snakes while they are celebrated in Chinese astrology.



Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
March 11th, 2014 at 11:42:17 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
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Quote: FrGamble
Could we argue for something like original sin without using the Scriptures?


We shouldn't. Original Sin is Christian theology/ideology, not a universal or near-universal belief. In fact, I'd argue such acceptance as the idea itself has, is due only to centuries of Christian philosophical dominance in the West.

The Greeks believed in Hubris, sure. But that was a specific case, which had to do with one's actions and not one's mere existence.

Quote:
Is there a tendency in all of us to be selfish or greedy or even willing to cheat if it benefits ourselves that needs to be corrected for the good of the community?


That's a loaded package-deal of a question. Let's unpack:

Selfishness does not necessarily imply greed, and it certainly does not imply cheating. Cheating is a self-defeating action, most of the time (see Lance Armstrong or Bernie Maddof), therefore a selfish person, one concerned with their own well-being, would not undertake such a self-destructive action, at least not habitually nor in any major way. This is beacuse cheating, in the end, does not benefit the perpetrator.

The good of the community is a poor standard on which to base the value of an action. A community, which is merely a collection of people and not an entity, may decide, by various possible means, all sorts of things which are definitely not good, though they may benefit "the community." Slavery, for example, or plunder of one's neighbor, or conquest, or eugenics, etc.

So to begin with: which community?


Quote:
For proof I offer a look at the front page of any newspaper. This way s2dbaker can finally feel comfortable reading something literally and doesn't have to worry about parts of a story being allegorical and other parts historical.


Oh, that's not a good example. The news are the first draft of history. And while not quite allegorical, there is "spin" in many cases, and editorial decisions as to content in all cases.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
March 11th, 2014 at 3:29:00 PM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 49
Posts: 426
If "God" was perfect, why would he make a creature that was imperfect…able to succumb to temptation…? free will…? IF "God" exists, it surely is a god that likes to play games
March 11th, 2014 at 9:21:54 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4980
I feel like I need a review of this thread which has touched on topics such as Biblical Interpretation to Eschatology.

First of all to protect us from personal and incorrect interpretation of the Bible we have many safeguards in place that should be followed to avoid the hubris of one person saying, "this is obviously what the author intended..." based on nothing more than an ax to grind and a literal look at the translated words in English. Don't get me wrong we need to look at the literal words and also look at them in their original language, then we have to determine its genre or style in which it is written so as not to take allegory, fable, or poetry to be historical narrative. Next we have to examine the historical context in which the text was written and take into consideration the audience and the person of the author. You need to also look at the context of the passage itself, what comes right before and afterwards, what is its place in the book of the Bible? Is there any other passages from Scripture or the Church Fathers that talk about this same topic or quote this text? How traditionally has this text been interpreted by more knowledgeable and more historically contemporary scholars than us? What does the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit to not only compile the books of the Bible but also to authentically interpret them have to say? I hope we can see that the proper interpretation of Scripture can be somewhat complicated and takes some humility and diligence to truly get at not only what the human author but the divine author wanted to communicate through the Word of God.

We also came to realize that the Bible is indeed a book of faith that communicates truth, but as Nareed pointed out this can be done through legend, or allegory, poetry and also through verified historical narrative. All of which are present in the collection of Sacred Scriptures we call the Bible. It is not a made up book it is an important and essential treasure chest of history as well as a theological tome.
March 11th, 2014 at 9:31:57 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4980
Ok, in regards to the Last Things (Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory) it really isn't all that complicated.

Heaven, permanent and perfect place where we are all created to go, our true home. All the unexplained longings we have for perfection and peace in this broken world are realized here in God's Eternal Kingdom of Love.

Hell, also permanent place but of damnation. Not where God wants any of us to go - and dare we hope it is empty. It is the total deprivation of all hope, joy, peace, and love because it is absent of God.

Purgatory, a temporary place of purification with the sole purpose of getting us ready for Heaven. The waiting room where we can shed any of the lingering imperfections we were not able to conquer in this life. A place of great mercy and forgiveness and happiness because we are finally becoming the person we also tried to be on earth but maybe just couldn't get there. This is necessary because of the perfection of Heaven (see above)

In the Christian understanding it was not possible to get to Heaven before the Messiah came, so the souls of the just were separated from God (like Hell) but without the absence of hope, peace, and love. Catechism quotes Scripture in calling this temporary part of Hell the "bosom of Abraham". It is here where Christ descended after the Crucifixion to free these just souls and usher them to Heaven.
March 12th, 2014 at 4:07:35 AM permalink
s2dbaker
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 13
Posts: 241
Quote: FrGamble
I feel like I need a review of this thread which has touched on topics such as Biblical Interpretation to Eschatology.

First of all to protect us from personal and incorrect interpretation of the Bible we have many safeguards in place that should be followed to avoid the hubris of one person saying, "this is obviously what the author intended..." based on nothing more than an ax to grind and a literal look at the translated words in English.
Why do you have to do that? You should always ask why. "Why do I have to inject my own beliefs into the words of the bible"?
Quote: FrGamble
Don't get me wrong we need to look at the literal words and also look at them in their original language, then we have to determine its genre or style in which it is written so as not to take allegory, fable, or poetry to be historical narrative.
Again,Why?
Quote: FrGamble
Next we have to examine the historical context in which the text was written and take into consideration the audience and the person of the author. You need to also look at the context of the passage itself, what comes right before and afterwards, what is its place in the book of the Bible? Is there any other passages from Scripture or the Church Fathers that talk about this same topic or quote this text?
..or contradict
Quote: FrGamble
How traditionally has this text been interpreted by more knowledgeable and more historically contemporary scholars than us?
People with less knowledge of the Universe and Science.
Quote: FrGamble
What does the Magisterium or teaching office of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit to not only compile the books of the Bible but also to authentically interpret them have to say?
You've indicated that they've injected their own belief system into to words of the bible. Why should I care at all what they think? They mean nothing to me.
Quote: FrGamble
I hope we can see that the proper interpretation of Scripture can be somewhat complicated and takes some humility and diligence to truly get at not only what the human author but the divine author wanted to communicate through the Word of God.
The proper interpretation of scripture is an oxymoron. If a God intended for his instruction manual to be followed by all, then He would have written it for all to clearly understand. Otherwise you have either a Stupid God or a God that really doesn't give a flying flip what they heck you do.
Quote: FrGamble
We also came to realize that the Bible is indeed a book of faith that communicates truth, but as Nareed pointed out this can be done through legend, or allegory, poetry and also through verified historical narrative. All of which are present in the collection of Sacred Scriptures we call the Bible. It is not a made up book it is an important and essential treasure chest of history as well as a theological tome.
Sorry, it's a made up book.