Original Sin?

FrGamble, The higher standard can not be defined by the bible.

You have brought up original sin, which came from the Old Testament, so I know you are not in the group of people who say the OT doesn't count.

There are many many things in the OT that were moral, and even commanded by god.

That was the holy law. That is what was right, justified by God, and holy.

Jesus taught a better way. It was written about hundreds of years later in the New Testament.

Therefore, that which is moral has changed.

You say that no, what is moral has not changed, but our understanding of what is moral is supposed to be moving towards the immutable reality of morality.

Another therefore,'society is deciding what is moral.

How we are guidd towards what is moral is perhaps where God cN be found.

Actually the point of this whole thing is forgiveness and freedom from sin so we can enjoy the innocent life. Our biggest problems always seem to come when we make ourselves the judge of what is right and wrong. This is in some ways the very definition of original sin. You are showing that the temptation to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is still very much alive. It seems so sweet to make up the morality we want but the result is bitter. The wages of sin are indeed death and suffering, you don't need a book to tell you that a newspaper will do.

Quote: FrGamble

The wages of sin are indeed death and suffering, you don't need a book to tell you that a newspaper will do.

Life isn't a board game, padre, which religion tries
to make it. The rules are under the lid, move thru
your life on the board and follow the rules and
all will be well.

There is no basis in fact or reality for any of it.
We give it credence because surely the men who
lived 2500 years were much wiser than we are.
The truth is, they would think we were gods and
they'd probably start a whole new religion based
on us. Oh boy.

Quote: Evenbob

Life isn't a board game, padre, which religion tries
to make it. The rules are under the lid, move thru
your life on the board and follow the rules and
all will be well.

There is no basis in fact or reality for any of it.
We give it credence because surely the men who
lived 2500 years were much wiser than we are.
The truth is, they would think we were gods and
they'd probably start a whole new religion based
on us. Oh boy.

Like the Ewoks and C3PO

Life is a little more like a test with rules than I think you are comfortable with. The basis for saying this is what happens when you or I try to make up the rules for ourselves. Ask yourself when you have been in the most trouble or been most upset with yourself and chances are it was because you decided to do things your way, putting yourself and your needs above those of others. These are things people recognized thousands of years ago and it is still just as true today.

Quote: FrGamble

Life is a little more like a test with rules than I think you are comfortable with. The basis for saying this is what happens when you or I try to make up the rules for ourselves. Ask yourself when you have been in the most trouble or been most upset with yourself and chances are it was because you decided to do things your way, putting yourself and your needs above those of others. These are things people recognized thousands of years ago and it is still just as true today.

What about cultures who do not believe in your God…who have never encountered anyone outside their cultures…? Are they sinful as well?

No more so than anyone else. You don't need God to be moral (something I have learned from being a member of this forum) but you do need God to be the foundation of an objective morality. These cultures by the fact that they are human know what is right and wrong and in following that to the best of their ability can not only live a moral life but can attain salvation.

Quote: FrGamble

No more so than anyone else. You don't need God to be moral (something I have learned from being a member of this forum) but you do need God to be the foundation of an objective morality.

God would be the farthest thing from a basis for objective morality. As a mythical character of human invention, all of his laws, commandments, temper tantrums (like that flood thing, or Babel), ill-considered bets, etc, etc, are merely the desires, prejudices, ideals, ideas, notions and wishes, among other things, of people thousands of years dead. All without any kind of rational or objective justification, save that "God" said so.

IMO, one would do just as well diggin up religious and civic texts from any of the many ancient civilizations, and following them in the same buffet-style, inteprative way people "follow" the Bible. Sure, your book of Carthaginian morality, say, would demand human sacrifices (let's not kid ourselves), but clearly that was meant for a different time, like the many moral sanctions concerning slavery in the Bible, right? If you're stuck for a figure who led by exmaple, showed kindness to his enemies and compassion to most everyone he came across, you can try Alexander the Great, or Julius Caesar.

All they're missing is two thousand years of further development (or 2200 years, rather).

Quote: FrGamble

Life is a little more like a test with rules than I think you are comfortable with.

You think you see a creation, so you invent a creator.
You can't see a purpose for life, so you give it one.
In the old old days, life was horrible. You watched
most of your kids die before they were 3, you lived
a hand to mouth existence. What the point of all, they
said. It must be a test. God is testing us.

I don't mean this about you, padre, but that's a child's
reaction to the problem. But the people were children,
simple explanations were appealing to them.

The divine pedagogy seen in the Bible are the exact opposites of the desires, prejudices, ideals, ideas, and notions of people thousands of years ago. A God who is one not many, a God who gives us His name so we can get to know Him, a God who genuinely cares for a people who are slaves and not wealthy, a God who actually works real miracles - in all these instances the newness of the ideas about God are staggering and represent the polar opposite of the experiences of the people of the day.

As far as the culmination of the teachings presented to us in the Bible there can be no greater example than Jesus Christ. Any example from human history to try to compare to Jesus of Nazareth in regards to kindness and compassion is laughable at best. It is He who liberates all people from the slavery to sin, much like the Father of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob rescued the chosen people from physical slavery.

Evenbob, I've noticed many times an aversion you have to the ancients. You seem to think they were dimwits barely standing upright. Have you read any of Plato's works?