Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Your problems with the second might find their roots here.

It does indeed: No God - No sense to following God.

Let me preface by quoting one of my favorite lines from Atlas Shrugged: "It is against the sin of forgiveness I wished to warn you." Francisco d'Anconia.

Quote:

My jaw hit the floor and I said to her that I wanted her to forgive this guy but the next time she saw him she should punch his lights out.

See, this is contradictory. I've no idea what your idea of forgivness is.

Quote:

What followed was me trying to explain that the forgiveness God was asking from her had little to do with that man but rather was meant to free her from the haunting grip of the evil done to her. Not forgiving was allowing this person and the evil done to her to still have a grip on her, God wanted to set her free.

From her statement as you report it, what she needs is a good therapist, not any kind of forgiveness.

Quote:

You can still love the immoral person and forgive them, not for them but for yourself - so that the evil of hate that oozed from them will never poison your heart.

The evil is entirely the evil-doer's problem, so long as you can keep him at a distance. Nothing oozes out and much less affects anyone else.

Now, there are things which can be forgiven, certainly. Even some serious things. But there are things which can never be forgiven, ever. When the harm is too extensive, when the perpetrator is not sorry, when the perpetrator makes things worse afterwards, when forgiveness is sought as carte-blanche for further harm (which is what Francisco warns about in Atlas), when the harm cannot be repaired, etc.

There's a popular saying in Mexico that goes "No tiene perdón de Dios." It means "Even God wouldn't forgive him." Which may show the ignorance even fervent catholics have about their own faith, but also that many people regard some actions as being forever beyond the pale.

"the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." (Jn 1:5)

I agree that we should never let forgiveness become an avenue where we can get hurt again and I also agree that there is some harm that cannot be fully repaired this side of Heaven (thank God that He will never allow injustice to stand forever). However, forgiveness really has nothing to do with the perpetrator. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves to be free from the evil done to us and the person who did it. If we hold onto grudges they eat away at us, harden our hearts, and darkness - the same darkness that evil thrives in - envelopes us. The light of love and forgiveness shines through this darkness and pierces it. Forgiveness gives us hope and freedom.

Quote: FrGamble

"However, forgiveness really has nothing to do with the perpetrator. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves to be free from the evil done to us and the person who did it. If we hold onto grudges they eat away at us, harden our hearts, and darkness - the same darkness that evil thrives in - envelopes us. The light of love and forgiveness shines through this darkness and pierces it. Forgiveness gives us hope and freedom.

No offense, but this whole quote makes no sense to me. Forgiveness is about granting a moral sanction, or overlooking a bad act, on the part of the perpetrator. And carrying a grudge can be helpful in order to keep toxic people away from one's self.

You must know there are some, uh, individuals right here whom I will never forgive (at least not unless something extraordinary happens). As yet I feel no evil-nurturing darkness enveloping me at all. Oh, I get angry from time to time, but that's true also of people I've forgiven.

Quote: Evenbob

Not at all, I think they did their best with what
they had. Which wasn't much. They lived in a
very small world, they rarely ventured more than
30 miles from where they were born. To put what
they said above what is being said now is foolish.

We do that with nothing else. Not with science or
medicine or technology. We never say 'lets see
what they said about this 2500 years ago' before
we get started. Yet we do it with religious writings.
We care more about what some old fart croaked
in 400 BC than we care about modern writers. Age
does not give credence to anything, especially
religion.

This is a very illuminating series of thoughts, EB. Well posited. I disagree about the foolishness of listening to what the ancients thought, because it was the origin of much of modern society, law, science, and mathematics as well as religion, but you're correct that it is wrong to disregard modern developments in considering their applicability to present-day lives. All of it has its place in enlightenment and learning.

Quote: FrGamble

"the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." (Jn 1:5)

I agree that we should never let forgiveness become an avenue where we can get hurt again and I also agree that there is some harm that cannot be fully repaired this side of Heaven (thank God that He will never allow injustice to stand forever). However, forgiveness really has nothing to do with the perpetrator. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves to be free from the evil done to us and the person who did it. If we hold onto grudges they eat away at us, harden our hearts, and darkness - the same darkness that evil thrives in - envelopes us. The light of love and forgiveness shines through this darkness and pierces it. Forgiveness gives us hope and freedom.

This is one of the most beautiful and worthwhile concepts to me of Catholicism. A way of surviving the inherent unfairness of life with grace and joy instead of living in bitterness. Both as a way of distancing oneself from irreparable hurt enough to lessen its stranglehold, and as a way of ultimate vindication and balancing. It is similar to the Serenity Prayer and Buddhist concepts of letting anger flow away into nothingness, to name a couple out of many. Thanks.

Quote: beachbumbabs

This is a very illuminating series of thoughts, EB. Well posited. I disagree about the foolishness of listening to what the ancients thought,

And I didn't say or intend that. I said we
shouldn't put it above what's written now.
They knew neither less or more than we
know about god, they shouldn't be given
special treatment. If nothing else, spirituality
is always grounded in the present moment,
not in the past.

Some of what you say is true, a little bit anyway. The reality is that those ancient writers were inspired by God, that makes their writing different in the mind of a believer than someone writing today or a non-Biblical writer in ancient days. Also some of those who were writing knew Jesus or were much closer to His time when He historically walked the Earth, that also gives their writing a certain amount of weight still today.

Quote: FrGamble

The reality is that those ancient writers were inspired by God, .

Says who? Why they do, of course. Or somebody
down the line proclaimed it. Face it, padre, everything
in your religion is heresay. None of it can be proven.
You believe it because you want to believe it, you
have faith that it's what it says it is.

Faith is the name of the game, starting with original
sin. The rest is just a giant puzzle that assembled itself
as the centuries rolled by. I think the universe is more
complicated and more mysterious than can be represented
in any one religion. We're all playing parts here, you're
the priest and I'm the unbeliever. Neither matters, but
they serve their purpose. All that matters is what's happening
in the moving present moment. The infinite ever changing
present moment.

Yes it takes faith, but it is far from hearsay. When I hear the word hearsay it usually has a negative connotation, like it is unfounded or unverified. Faith to be real has to be rational and founded on truth. Faith in Jesus Christ is not only historical, rational, and backed up by countless miracles and witnesses who testify to its truth, but it also has personally been proven to me through my own experiences and those of others.

Quote: FrGamble

Faith in Jesus Christ is not only historical, rational, and backed up by countless miracles and witnesses who testify to its truth, but it also has personally been proven to me through my own experiences and those of others.

Much of what surrounds Jesus life is hearsay. But it
doesn't matter, it's all about faith. What's the difference
if it really happened, you have faith that it did. You
give it relevance, your Church promotes it, you want
it to be true. Whether it is or not has nothing to do
with anything. It makes you happy, it's keeps you going,
it forces you to help others. What's wrong with that.
Imagine how boring life would be if there was only
one religion, one point of view.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamed of in your philosophy.". Shakespeare