Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

That's pretty funny - now I wish I could understand what the Immaculate Conception minus the Immaculate part Evenbob is talking about in some of these posts - can't you censor him or something? :-)

Nobody has ever given a shred of proof that Original Sin exists.
And without it, Christianity has no basis, it has no foundation.
There is nothing to be 'saved' from. Patent medicine sellers
would invent a fake disease and claim to have the cure. That's
what Judaism did, invented the problem, and the cure was a
'savior'. But the savior actually coming throws a monkey wrench
into their power structure, it was never supposed to happen.

So now we have a fake savior that was never supposed arrive, to
save us from something that doesn't exist. What a mess.

I believe the proof is in the pudding. Why do we sin but not want to sin? Why do we strive to always be better in spite of our obvious failures and weaknesses? It is like something inside of us is calling us to a higher seemingly impossible dream and even though we struggle we still can't shake this desire for the dream. We feel miserable, depressed, and frustrated when we stop trying to be better and we never completely accept mediocrity in our heart of hearts. This feeling is universal for all human beings. How can we even have the idea of perfection if none of us have ever obtained it? Original sin explains that echo of perfection in our hearts and mind, that longing to be the person we somehow deep inside want to be - who we were created to be.

Quote: Face

Something to continue pondering, I'm sure.

OK, I'm back. Teliot sparked something in my head when he said morality is a by product of evolution.

I look at life, and I see a cyclical pattern. It stays the same, the only change is the scale. You start your day groggy and useless, you fire up to peak performance by midday, and by nighttime you're dragging and useless. You start your life as a useless baby, by your 30s and 40s you're at peak performance, and by your 80s you're dragging and useless. In the beginning of humanity we had little knowledge and were "useless" by today's standards, now we're charged up approaching peak performance, and eventually we will falter and fail. Plant and animal alike, it all seems to follow this pattern. The pattern of nature. Makes sense to me, anyways.

A baby is born without morality. It knows not good or evil, it cannot be good or evil. Any thought of good or evil is implanted in it, it is taught, by those who have guardianship over it. My 5 year old son is a good little boy. But he's also a terror and a monster. Not because of God, but because I haven't yet taught him all he needs to know. When dad can't go any farther and breaks down, he comes over and snuggles me and rubs my head. That isn't God, that's a product of me teaching him compassion. When he sees a random dog and stomps it, that's not the devil. That's just curiosity and the uncontrolled spontaneity of a young boy.

I can envision this back at the beginning of humanity. An early human wants something, so he takes it. There is no thought of the person he took from, only the thought that he wants it. That's not lack of God, not the presence of the devil. It's the animal urge of need and acquire, a natural instinct. Sometimes it works out and he gets away with it. Sometimes he's caught and there's a fight. And the act of conditioning begins.

Fighting in nature is almost always a last resort. Life cannot afford the energy to fight at random or whenever the mood strikes. In nature, food is precious. A fight could leave one too exhausted to go on. It also causes injury, an injury which, in nature, could leave one open to infection or broken to the point they can no longer acquire food. Fights are avoided. But the man still needs what he wants. So he tries to get it without fighting.

Perhaps he offers a rock for a berry. Perhaps he offers grooming for some meat. Commerce is born. Man finds he can get what he wants without having to risk fight. We still see this with lesser mammals.

The key is that man is blessed with the power of communication. This act of commerce can be communicated and passed on, and it is. It is seen as "good". One can help himself by helping others. He gets what he wants, he helps another, and both are spared the "bad" of a fight. Morality is born.

Fast forward to today, and we have a whole book of morality. Things which are good, things which are bad. All of which, through our power of communication and the results of our experiences, has been created out of the experience of our past, all the way back to the first men.

I don't think that feeling of being good is godly. I think it is taught. I have morality because of my mother and father. Everything I think as good or bad started with the things they taught me, and continued to evolve based on my own experiences. I see it in my own son as he grows. And said morality is not just what we actively experience. It, like all the knowledge we have, is the culmination of experiences of every man who came before us, passed down by the art of communication.

Just a thought. We'll see where it goes =p

Quote: FrGamble

Original sin explains that echo of perfection in our hearts and mind, that longing to be the person we somehow deep inside want to be - who we were created to be.

You are using faulty logic. Just because people
want to better themselves doesn't mean they're
being urged by a higher power. We have the urge
and then invent the moral arbiter, not the other way
around. People did the same thing with the devil.
Their well would dry up, or their kid would die and
they couldn't figure out why, so they made up a
devil to blame.

Reverse engineering doesn't work with theology.

Quote: Face

...
The key is that man is blessed with the power of communication.

And opposable thumbs.

Seriously, interesting mind riff, Face. Thanks!

Cue Gary Larson:

We see a 'creation' and invent a creator. The Hindu's
are probably closer than anybody. They say the universe has
come and gone an infinite number of times and
will continue to do so. We are a part of that and we
will continue also. When you start to realize that, your
priorities change. You slow down, have no regrets,
and appreciate where you are right now.

Religion is a diversion, it's for those who need the drama
in their lives. It's not good or bad, it just is what it
is. Like everything else.

I am wondering why my earlier comment was ignored by FrG…

Here it is again:




Also FrG...how do you reconcile the Bible's liberal borrowing/plagiarizing from countless other creation stories throughout its preceding history…?

It is no surprise to me that many of the brilliant cultures and societies before Judaism were guided by the unknown Spirit of God to be a dim foreshadowing of the truth to come.

Quote: Evenbob

We see a 'creation' and invent a creator. The Hindu's
are probably closer than anybody. They say the universe has
come and gone an infinite number of times and
will continue to do so. We are a part of that and we
will continue also. When you start to realize that, your
priorities change. You slow down, have no regrets,
and appreciate where you are right now.

So let me get this straight we can't invent a creator even though we clearly see a creation, but its okay to invent an eternal and infinite universe when we can't see or even conceive of anything that would remotely point to that? It seems to me that what you call reverse engineering is simply your bias showing through your argument by not seriously considering something you don't want to take seriously and embracing something you merely wish to be true.

Quote: FrGamble

So let me get this straight we can't invent a creator even though we clearly see a creation,

Nooooo... We see a result, not a creation. We see a
result of the eternal universe being itself. We see
god being god, for lack of a better explanation.

Forever and ever, world without end. This imparts
far more responsibility on an individual than being
baptized and accepting Christ. It means you actually
have to contemplate your existence. Ouch..