Original Sin?

Quote: rxwine

Yup, you have literally millions of evidence of things coming before that are ordinary processes and material and not a supernatural cause.

That's millions of argument against supernatural causes.

Don't you see that all the things that are created in this universe depend and rest upon a supernatural cause. It can't be turtles all the way down. There has to have been something that created everything that itself is non-contingent, uncreated, eternal, spiritual, and all-powerful. The millions of pieces of evidence you presented actually points us to the need for a supernatural cause.

Quote: Evenbob

I can't clam up if I never read them.

My point exactly, sounds to me like someone who knows deep down they are wrong.

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I have to go to the airplane analogy again.
We don't only fly because of the faith
of the pilots and other passengers, we
know the math and science behind
flying is ironclad. The thing has to fly.
And it does. Our faith is backed by rock
hard science.

You know nothing about that particular airplane or pilot. You have faith that it will fly based on the math and science of flight and your previous experiences and your trust that the airline and pilot do their job well.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm saying neither existed but I acknowledge that proving something existed in the past is difficult.

And don't you think it's arrogant, then, to say no giants ever existed?

Quote: FrGamble

First of all thanks. I don't know if I just wasn't paying attention, distracted, or if there was some miscommunication but these last posts you have laid out are really good and explain your illogical claims much better. Sorry for the inconvenience of posting again and your frustration for what you thought was my ignoring them.



I think that all of those statements are settled and undisputed. I just thought we could agree on one of the most intuitive and self evident ones.

nope, myself and many others dispute them.

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So are you saying that there is evidence of some things that came from nothing? I contend that all contingent material things came from something else or have their reason for existing not in themselves. Again I am puzzled that you disagree with this. I'm not saying 'some therefore all'. I am saying all therefore all. One of the defining characteristics of material things are they are not necessary and therefore dependent on something else for their existence.

logical argument: a lack of evidence that something has not come from nothing is not proof or evidence that something can not come from nothing.

You also have not demonstrated that everything has come from something, just that everything that we have observed has come from something. we have not observed everything, though.

If you have an extradimensional bag of marbles, you don't know how many marbles are in the bag, and for generations people have only drawn white marbles out of the bag, what color are all of the marbles in the bag?

There is some evidence that all of the marbles in the bag are white. however, there are alternate explanations which are either supported or not refuted by the evidence:

a relatively small number of marbles are of a different color, and we just haven't drawn them yet.

the white marbles are always on the top, and therefore are the only ones which are available to be drawn out.

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It matters not a bit what A might mean. I just want to make sure that you and I are at least in agreement that A cannot equal non-A. A could be hot dogs or an integer. The point is that this is a logical truth that is undisputable and settled.

Fine, I will await your next argument that you claim is A therefore not A, and decide then if I can refute it.

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Are you saying that we should stop making truth claims?

yes, if you can't demonstrate that what you say is true. doesn't matter if you have asked other people to that or not.

You can't truthfully say that your version of god created the universe, and EvenBob can't truthfully say that the universe has been here forever. You both believe these things, and you both have logic and reason and evidence to support your claims, but neither of you can with reasonable certainty, in my opinion, demonstrate that you are correct and the other is wrong.

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Yes it supports multiple conclusions, but it allow us to eliminate atheism. If we define atheism as the denial of a higher being or supernatural force as the cause of all that exists.

eliminate atheism? how so? I suppose first of all it depends on your definition of atheism, which you have laid one out there. Personally, I deny that there is sufficient evidence to form the conclusion that a god or higher being exists now, or existed then to cause the universe. Do I have to prove that no gods exist to be an atheist? Being an atheist means you believe that no gods exist, not that you can prove it.

If there is a logical and consistent argument, backed by available evidence, that supports a conclusion that a higher being or supernatural force was not the cause of all that exists, how will you disprove it?

I'll cook up another one in a little while.

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Actually I place things we believe to be true by a reasonable faith, one based on logic, philosophy, evidence, study, etc., at a higher level. This is because it is practical and necessary for us as human beings to live. It is not just religion that depends on faith and trust, it is everyone and everything that we do.

What you consider reasonable faith is a matter of opinion. I have a higher bar. Also, just because I have faith that an airplane can fly does not mean I have to support all issues that require faith without personal knowledge of how they work.

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What you consider missing links seems to me to be hypothetical impossibilities. In my discussion with Nareed we were talking about not believing in giants. Nareed brought up that we have not excavated the entire world and they could have existed in the past. Granted but do we really need to do that in order to be certain that giants did not exist? There are multiple possibilities like Face once pointed out, maybe we are all on a subatomic particle floating in some aliens coffee. Do we really need to rule that out ignoring the actual evidence and observations we have before we can move on? I don't think so. Where does the evidence point and gather and have faith that we are not part of a cosmic series of farts.

Yes, hypothetical impossibilities. Restricting this just to religion, if you have multiple sets of logic, reason, and evidence which supports the conclusions which form the basis of various religions, and you can't disprove any of them, how can an adherent of one of those religions possibly claim that they are right and everyone else is wrong?

Quote: FrGamble

In my discussion with Nareed we were talking about not believing in giants. Nareed brought up that we have not excavated the entire world and they could have existed in the past. Granted but do we really need to do that in order to be certain that giants did not exist?

You keep approaching the point and missing it.

What reason is there to believe giants ever existed? They are common figures in the myths of many civilizations. That's it.

But there are other common figures in the myths of many civilizations. From fanciful beasts, to demons, angels, and gods.

Quote: Nareed

And don't you think it's arrogant, then, to say no giants ever existed?

Not in the least.

Speaking of logic...

What's more likely, infinite or eternal energy or an unnecessarily complex god being?

You really only need one of those for one possibility for a source for everything. Occam's razor and all..

All signs point to humans being here without any help, AFAICT. On our own. Maybe there's more, but it is not apparent in evidence so far.

Quote: FrGamble

My point exactly, sounds to me like someone who knows deep down they are wrong.

More like I got tired of reading the
exact same repetitive drivel day after
day after day. Even I have mostly
stopped following the headlines,
it's not an election year, who cares.

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You have faith that it will fly based on

Based on actual facts that can be verified
and checked and triple checked for
accuracy. All believers in Jesus have is
hearsay from other believers. In other
words, they have nothing.

Quote: rxwine

Speaking of logic...
What's more likely, infinite or eternal energy or an unnecessarily complex god being?
.

The hard thing for believers about god is,
if you get a whole bunch of them in one
place, at a rally or a retreat, god really
seems to exist to them because they all
reinforce each others belief. But this kind
of low level mass hysteria works with any
belief, no matter how off the wall it is.
It's why most religions advise only hanging
out with like minded believers, it's too easy
to be led astray.