Original Sin?

Okay Bob you have never heard anything other than circular logic, but do you really think in people's hearts they are only believers because they were told? I'm trying not to take offense at such a ludicrous statement. Could it be that perhaps in ways not easily explained to others they have found Christ to be the answer to their struggles with sin, the inspiration they need to persevere through suffering, the hope that this world is not all there is, a way to make sense of the wonders of creation, the giver of proven and time tested ways to live life to the fullest, to keep them out of trouble, and to live the amazing paradox that in serving others we find our greatest joy. You once said something strange like your beliefs answer the questions you have before you even ask them. I let this circular logic go because maybe you had a personal experience that you couldn't share with us, that's okay. When we are talking here on the forum about proof of God's existence what I'm giving is really logical probabilities that make the belief in God reasonable - much more reasonable than not believing in God. However, the next steps of entering into a relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ is a whole different discussion at a more personal and experiential level.

Three smart gentlemen who seriously wrestled with the question of God's existence and did not make thier decision lightly and came to different conclusions at different times should not be ignored. At the same time it should be remembered that their statements about God are akin to theologians denying evolution. These brilliant scientists should not be ignored nor should the millions of the worlds greatest and smartest minds in science and other fields who do believe in God and NOT just because someone told them to.

Quote: FrGamble

However to look for patterns and order based on a strictly scientific mindset would be incorrect.

I'm sorry to inform you your reductio is quite absurdum ;)

Seriously, you're reaching.

Scientists look for order and rules because they have found such things before in prior discoveries. Prior to this, they looked due to beliefs, not evidence. Ergo the incredibly hyper-complex views of the Solar system by bright people such as Ptolemy, among other things. Say, do you recall the theory which stated living beings, such as flies, arise spontaneously from non-living matter, like rotting meat? Imagine the complexity of chemical reaction and hyper-rapid system building that would have required! Or the very sensible, for the time, phlogiston theory of fire. It required a substance with negative mass!

Quote: Nareed

Scientists look for order and rules because they have found such things before in prior discoveries.

This is what I was trying to say, thanks.

Quote: FrGamble

do you really think in people's hearts they are only believers because they were told? I'm trying not to take offense at such a ludicrous statement. Could it be that perhaps in ways not easily explained to others they have found Christ to be the answer.

Sure, people can talk themselves into anything.
Look at the episodes of mass hysteria in history
by Christians, they talked themselves into the
fallacy that witches and the devil were everywhere
and they went crazy killing innocent women. I
know you hate this analogy, but little kids absolutely
believe Santa is real. Adults are just as easily duped,
it's a proven fact.

Here's a quote from Dan Barker, who was a minister
for 20 years and became an atheist.

"It turns out that atheism means much less than I had thought. It is merely the lack of theism. It is not a philosophy of life and it offers no values. It predicts nothing of morality or motives. In my case, becoming an atheist was a positive move-the removal of the negative baggage of religious fallacy. I think all of us will have to admit, in your heart of hearts you have to admit when you are honest with yourself, you know in your heart of hearts that we all live in a completely godless universe. It is one hundred percent natural.”

I see this very clearly, how could it be any
other way.

Quote: FrGamble

This is what I was trying to say, thanks.

I don't think that was what you were trying to say. But for some reason I laughed when I saw your post, which went a ways in dispelling some anger that had built up during the day.

Thanks!

I don't think it is only me who finds your claim that adults are just as easily duped as kids believing in Santa as offensive. What if I was to say that atheists have talked themselves into this fallacy that there is no God? It seems clear through the quote you provided that this atheist was making an emotional decision based on a poor presentation of his religion that he was reacting to. He also offers no proof other than we "know in your heart of hearts that we all live in a completely godless universe." What a bunch of baloney. If I was to say the same thing, "we know in our hearts that we all live in a universe created by God", would you let me get away with it? Of course not. Dan Barker offers nothing as evidence except for a negative experience with religion. Why can't you get it through your thick skull that people also have life changing positive experiences with religion that leads them to become strong believers? Couple that with scientific evidence, sound philosophy and logic and you can make a very good non-circular argument for God's existence and for the joy that comes from having a real and life giving relationship with Jesus Christ. I see this very clearly and for the life of me I can't see how you do not?!?

Anyway, let's all pray for the people of Ferguson and for healing and understanding in our country.

Quote: FrGamble

real and life giving relationship with Jesus Christ. I see this very clearly and for the life of me I can't see how you do not?!?
.

Then that's what you should do, I have no problem
with religious people doing whatever they want.
As long as they don't interfere with me. As I
said, in quoting Joe Campbell, follow your bliss.

Do you know who he is? Power of Myth, Hero
With a Thousand Faces? He studied and taught
comparative religion for 50 years. He described
himself as a 'recovering Catholic'. Scary smart
guy.

“When you realize that eternity is right here now, that it is within your possibility to experience the eternity of your own truth and being, then you grasp the following: That which you are was never born and will never die. ."

Follow your bliss means do that which makes
you happy. You're happy being a priest. Don't
expect my bliss to be just like yours, I have my
own, as does everybody.

Okay Bob I think we have reached some common ground, thanks for that. However, before we hold hands and sing Kumbya into the night I'd like to propose that both of us stop assuming that either Christians or Atheists have no grounds or evidence outside of their emotions and experiences to believe or not believe in God.

Quote: FrGamble

Christians or Atheists have no grounds or evidence outside of their emotions and experiences to believe or not believe in God.

Atheists don't have beliefs. Lack of a belief isn't
a belief. You act like believing in god is a choice.
It's not. It's only a choice if somewhere in your
mind you think god might exist and choose not
to believe it. In my mind there is no chance of
god's existence, it would make the universe seem
very strange indeed and not what I see at all.

You say I amaze you that I don't see god. You amaze
me more that you see something that isn't there. I
don't mean this as an insult, but seeing things that
aren't there is what schizophrenics do. When it's labeled
religion, we look the other way, though.

And the joyful music comes to a screeching halt...

Even I can admit that the problem of evil can be used as evidence to support the claim of atheists. However after looking at all the evidence (historical, scientific, philosophical, logic, the arts) and the answers theologians provide for the problem or good and evil and many other fundamental questions for human beings, I have chosen to believe in God. Then I have seen countless times in my life and the lives of the many people I serve even more powerful examples and experiences of God's loving grace at work in people's lives. It is a choice that I have made to believe in God as revealed through Jesus Christ and that belief has been confirmed through the blessings and struggles of my life and through others. I know you can't see through my eyes and know for sure of God's existence, but at least open your mind to see that there is a chance that God exists. I know what schizophrenia is, but I don't know what you would call it when someone refuses to acknowledge reality or see something right in front of them, whatever the problem is called you seem to suffer from it and it is serious.