King Ethanol Will Abdicate?

as various folk have said all along,

Quote: link

The International Institute for Sustainable Development ... estimates that the CO2 and climate benefits from replacing petroleum fuels with biofuels like ethanol are basically zero

another choice quote,

Quote:

Groups like Oxfam and the Environmental Working Group oppose biofuels because they push up food prices and disproportionately affect the poor...In 2000, over 90% of the U.S. corn crop went to feed people and livestock, many in undeveloped countries...In 2013, however, 40% went to produce ethanol, 45% was used to feed livestock, and only 15% was used for food and beverage

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/20/its-final-corn-ethanol-is-of-no-use/

Quote: odiousgambit

as various folk have said all along,

It is only about the Iowa caucus, if not for that ethanol from corn would be just an experiment. We could do far better getting it from wood or I am even told old newspapers. Either of those has plenty of scrap available. It still does not have the power of gasoline but if we are going to do this "hamburger helper" thing with alcohol then lets not have our cars compete with us for food as horses once did.

Quote: AZDuffman

We could do far better getting it from wood or I am even told old newspapers.

Alas, we hear about this but the technology actually hasn't been cracked. Science would love to be able to easily break cellulose down into simpler starches and sugars - then alcohol - for some kind of reasonable price. They've spent millions studying how termites break down cellulose. So far we are still in the 19th century: Does cellulose have a use in energy production? yes, you can burn it. [edit: maybe I should say 'still in the stone age'?]

Dupont had an ambitious program to turn cornstalks or other cellulose into carpet fibers. They started a brand of carpet for this use. Sadly, and I do mean sadly, tragically really... or is 'monstrously' the right word? ... they found they could do it if they didn't use cornstalks but, you guessed it, the corn itself.

The monstrosity of it doesn't keep them from advertising it in a "feel good" way.

https://www.mohawkflooring.com/flooring/carpet/smartstrand.aspx

Quote: AZDuffman

It still does not have the power of gasoline but if we are going to do this "hamburger helper" thing with alcohol then lets not have our cars compete with us for food as horses once did.

Just more from the government run amok file. The condition is usually irreversible.

Quote: odiousgambit

Alas, we hear about this but the technology actually hasn't been cracked. Science would love to be able to easily break cellulose down into simpler starches and sugars - then alcohol - for some kind of reasonable price. They've spent millions studying how termites break down cellulose. So far we are still in the 19th century: Does cellulose have a use in energy production? yes, you can burn it. [edit: maybe I should say 'still in the stone age'?]

Well we already have wood alcohol, so from newspapers should not be the biggest stretch. But as you say always just out of reach.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BIOFUELS_GLOBAL_WARMING?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-04-21-04-02-59

I have a good friend in Iowa who leases out thousands
of acres of farmland to big corn growers. He says biofuel
is a joke, but the biggest thing ever to happen to his
state. He laughs about it all the way to the bank.

Quote: AZDuffman

Well we already have wood alcohol

I believe it is not derived from the breakdown of cellulose at all. If cellulose could be broken down into simple starches/sugars, then it would be easy to produce ethanol [but not methanol].

Methanol [wood alcohol] I believe is instead distilled from the volatiles in wood. Think of the difference between wood that burns as a fire, and charcoal that burns without flame. Well, for charcoal the volatiles have been driven off and the remaining carbon compounds burn. Those volatiles contain methanol and that can be distilled [of course in that case you don't burn them].

I believe I have that right anyway. Maybe Mr. Martin will weigh in.

Quote: odiousgambit

I believe it is not derived from the breakdown of cellulose at all. If cellulose could be broken down into simple starches/sugars, then it would be easy to produce ethanol [but not methanol].

Methanol [wood alcohol] I believe is instead distilled from the volatiles in wood. Think of the difference between wood that burns as a fire, and charcoal that burns without flame. Well, for charcoal the volatiles have been driven off and the remaining carbon compounds burn. Those volatiles contain methanol and that can be distilled [of course in that case you don't burn them].

I believe I have that right anyway. Maybe Mr. Martin will weigh in.

You got me as all I know is you can make it from wood and to drink it is to die for. On modern cars methanol and ethanol are *not* interchangeable and my owners manual says don't use methanol. Methinks methanol would be rough on plastic parts in even worse ways than ethanol.

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: odiousgambit

I believe it is not derived from the breakdown of cellulose at all. If cellulose could be broken down into simple starches/sugars, then it would be easy to produce ethanol [but not methanol].

Methanol [wood alcohol] I believe is instead distilled from the volatiles in wood. Think of the difference between wood that burns as a fire, and charcoal that burns without flame. Well, for charcoal the volatiles have been driven off and the remaining carbon compounds burn. Those volatiles contain methanol and that can be distilled [of course in that case you don't burn them].

I believe I have that right anyway. Maybe Mr. Martin will weigh in.

You got me as all I know is you can make it from wood and to drink it is to die for. On modern cars methanol and ethanol are *not* interchangeable and my owners manual says don't use methanol. Methinks methanol would be rough on plastic parts in even worse ways than ethanol.

Ethanol is made, methanol is harvested. Ethanol is booze, basically. Ferment sugars and boom, ethanol. Methanol is a product of natural gas. Keep freezing swamp gas and one of the liquids that will eventually condense will be methanol.

Ethanol is yummy. Methanol will make you blind, if you're lucky. Both ream the hell out of a motor's plastics, seals, and metals, but methanol is what they use in those 1,000+HP top fuel dragsters. Some badass r/c cars run on methanol, too.

Methanol is what's in rubbing alcohol. Antifreeze too, methinks. And...I think i'm out of alcohol facts =p

Quote: Face

Methanol is what's in rubbing alcohol.

Can't fact-check from my knowledge base on everything in your post, but I think you mostly are correct except for this one. Rubbing alcohol is Isopropyl alcohol. I believe that is a petroleum distillate, don't quote me.

A frequently cited irony of drinking rubbing alcohol - a very bad idea - is that it is "more toxic but less intoxicating" than ethanol. I wonder if the same can be said of methanol?

I have boned up a little on cellulose-into-biofuel in the meantime. Anywhere in my posts where I seem to say it is not possible to break down cellulose into something that can be turned into ethanol should stand corrected. However, to say it can't be done easily or economically is correct.

Also, it is always ethanol, not methanol, in biomass production.