Gay Marriage

Some allergies are caused by environmental, not genetic, factors. There is no genetic cause for getting these allergies, you are not choosing to get these allergies, and you can not choose to not be alergic anymore.

So, just because a gay gene hasn't been found, it doesn't make it a choice. The causes may be social and or environmental, but once you are "that way" you may not be able to choose.

Has anyone yet chosen not to be gay? I'm not talking about celibacy or living a lie, but truly became heterosexual again?

Quote: Dalex64

Some allergies are caused by environmental, not genetic, factors. There is no genetic cause for getting these allergies, you are not choosing to get these allergies, and you can not choose to not be alergic anymore.

So, just because a gay gene hasn't been found, it doesn't make it a choice. The causes may be social and or environmental, but once you are "that way" you may not be able to choose.

OK, this is a new and good point. But first off, it does throw a wrench into the "born this way" thing. It also throws the same wrench into the idea that we should ban conversion therapy. Do we tell people who are hooked on cigarettes, booze or drugs, "sorry, you are 'that way' now so don't try to cure yourself, go smoke/drink/shoot up and be proud of who you are?"

To your point, I do beleive it is causes by social and envrionmental factors. Someone might be abused as a kid and then think such activity is "normal" same as dysfunctional families go from generation to generation. They may have had bad luck with finding a hetero partner and get seduced into the life by an older gay person who little by little makes that person emotionally dependent on them. They may be a trysexual (they will try anything) and decide they like it.

My thought is the most common is the lonely person getting seduced into it. I won't repost the video but the link is on WoV. It can be a lonely male or female, might be a touch of a misfit or even the popular person who is actually popular only to the outside world but somehow feels empty. As a teenager they are spotted by a homosexual who wishes to make them the submissive person in the relationship. Said predator, call them a wolf, starts talking to them. The wolf discovers their emotional need and starts filling that need.

Then it can go a few ways. The wolf may get the person to do more and more and the person just falls into it. eg: sitting in the house becomes sitting in the hot tub then in the hot tub with no clothes and the person just gets more and more comfortable as they go step by step until they are turned out.

Now if the person gets uncomfortable the wolf has to take a different tactic. Here the wolf may make them dependent emotionally but along the way the wolf takes away the support. A female might bet praise on how she looks everytime her wolf sees her but if it isn't moving the wolf withholds praise, or even "brings up" the new diet she heard about. The prey will fall right back into line in most cases.

After they are turned they may get tired of the behavior of the wolf or the wolf wants to turn someone else so they drift away. But by now they feel guilty for what they did, and their self-esteem may be even lower. So they continue the life. Some will become wolves themselves, others might just not feel worthy of a hetero relationship. Others still will be convinced they were.

Quote:

Has anyone yet chosen not to be gay? I'm not talking about celibacy or living a lie, but truly became heterosexual again?

I am sure there are plenty out there. If they have any kind of celebrity to come out and say they did this is the last thing they would do because to do so would invite attack from the gay mafia who would immediately do all they could to destroy said person.

I'll try to answer as best I can.

Quote: Beethoven

Face, since you've made this part of the public record, I might as well respond publicly:

{snip}

Anyway, I'm very sorry to everyone that this message had to be public. I would have preferred this entire discussion to take place privately, but since I was publicly admonished in front of the whole freakin' forum, I felt it was necessary to respond publicly.

As I said, it was not my intention to publicly humiliate you. But concerning the issues between you and the members who either have a problem with you or with whom you have a problem, I have already done the PMs and gentle whisper approach. Going way back, I've talked to you, BBB, rxwine, terapined, Twirdman, recently TheCessPit... whether you have a problem with them or they have a problem with you, whether they've started the snipes or you have, there has been an offshoot group that has been sniping and antagonizing for far too long. My blankets statements haven't worked. My suggestive whispers haven't worked. All of this needs to stop, and I now know no other way that to put everything on notice and in the open.

I took a chance. I knew something like this had a chance into blowing up into drama. But I also thought there was a chance it would result in some understand by every single party involved and the problem would be fixed. I weighed that against doing the same old thing, which, as has been shown, fixed nothing and continues to bring the quality of the forum down. Risk/reward. Taking the chance of the public address seemed a risk worth taking. I suppose we will see if that's true.

Quote: Beethoven

Exactly, which is why I was genuinely surprised that you never commented on the racial slur that was used on WoV. How come you didn't protect the forum from racial slurs? If you're so concerned about "shift" and "tangent" affecting the Wiz's investments, then shouldn't you at least be a little concerned about racial slurs on his forum? Even though I'm not Asian, I can say with authority that some Asians do find the C-word to be just as offensive as you find the R-word.

Regarding my previous actions or inactions, again, some of it I was involved in, some I was not. rxwine's sig, for example, I addressed indirectly. More of that "make a suggestion and hope" type of modding. As we all see, that didn't work. rxwine's sig remained, as has yours. This is part of what made my decision to address this publicy.

Regarding the racial slur, the details surrounding that incident gave me pause. First, I rarely jump right in on an issue if it doesn't contain obvious and direct malice. It was a slur, yes, but not directed at someone. I also have never flipped out for use of Redskin, Injun, firewater, wampum, or claims folks will be scalped. I have debated the use of the terms, at times, in the same manner as I debate every other thing, but I've never demanded them to not be used or shamed the person using them. The nature of the complaint gave me pause as well. It was EB who first used the slur, and no mention was made. It was not until BBB referenced it that all of the sudden it was a problem. Was it because she was a mod and therefore should hold a higher standard? Perhaps it was. Or was it because BBB had just banned you, and you wanted to start trouble for her? Could've been that as well. So, since no other member seemed to suffer great offense, I adopted the same "wait and see" approach I always do when it comes to addressing an issue. And finally, the offense involved another regular member. If I have a reasonable belief that the person who made the comment will return soon to defend or explain the comment, then I will not speak for them. Again, I'll wait and see where it goes, as opposed to jumping all over every single thing I see and acting like the ever present forum police.

Quote: Beethoven

Here's a solution. It's a little childish, but since people are continually whining, how about instituting some sort of truce where [name(s) withheld] and I cease writing or referring to each other on these forums? I, for one, would have no problem with such an arrangement since I rarely write to those guys anyway.

OTOH, I bet they'd never agree to that because it would take away their "fun". They would no longer be able to play the "Let's-get-Beethoven-and-the-mods-arguing-on-the-forum" game. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they're laughing it up right now reading our exchange. (If anyone out there doubts me, ask yourself why these guys refuse to use the 'Block' feature??)

Asking or forcing members to never address each other is, as you said, quite childish. I also see it perhaps encouraging more games to be played. After all, any single person I've listed that you've had run ins with before could address you in an attempt to bait you and would receive only a 3-7 day ban, per their history. You slip up once, and it's at least 60 days for you. I don't want to come to a solution that encourages more games. I don't want to demand you never speak to each other, and have to parse every single post made in the future, just to make sure. I don't want to have to address anything about this issue ever again. The time I've spent typing the last two days, the stress I endure from having offended people, you, in this instance, is not something I want to continue doing. Making future posts chock full of drama is something I want to end as absolutely soon as possible.

I do want a truce. I don't care if everyone shakes virtual hands or if everyone takes the high road and apologizes. But the games stop. Everyone is to ditch the sigs. Everyone is to ditch the mockery, the ridicule, the derision, the jeering, the teasing, and the taunting. Talk, discuss, debate. And leave the BS at the door.

I think it's pretty harmless, especially the Beethoven, Bach, Brahms reference. To quote the ever-sensible Mosca, "It's the Internet, deal with it."

Quote: Face

...boymimbo is an American turned Canadian,

No sir. I am a Canadian who's lived in the States on and off over the last 10 years, in Washington State, California, Jersey, Hartford, and Chicago.

Quote: AZDuffman

Not sure what the law is where you are at, but in the USA there need not be any familial relationship to claim someone as a dependent, you merely have to provide for that person. I forget the exact definition, but being related is NOT a part of it. Ditto POAs. You can make any person your attorney-in-fact. None of this requires changing a law.

In Canada, indeed, you can assign a power-of-attorney, but spouse always takes precedence and is the defacto POA. In Canada, if you are married (same sex or not), you are the POA

Quote: AZ

I am still not conceding that it is anything but a choice until we find physiological and not merely "that is how I feel" evidence. I still feel most gays are seduced into it because they had a bad relationship, have a lower sex drive, or just can't find the "right person" so they decide to experiment. Sorry, but just because the public buys into something doesn't mean I am going to follow the crowd. The public seems to be wrong far more than it is right on things.

[edit]
I'm still processing my thoughts on this, and certainly, as her dad, I wonder if there would sway her into being straight. And frankly, I haven't come up with a set of circumstances that would make her gay. My daughter wasn't seduced into homosexuality, but she certainly wasn't told as she grew up to feel that homosexuality was wrong by either her mother or I.

Rather than attempting her to force herself to feel guilt about her attraction towards women or to take counselling to force homosexuality out of her, I would rather her be happy and let the spiritual forces go where they may. My daughter isn't evil and her intent isn't to destroy society. Her intent is to find personal happiness and that is her journal, and her journey alone. But certainly, if her long term choice is take up a female partner, I have no problem supporting her decision and I support the government's position of allowing same sex marriages for the purposes of benefits.

From a Christian / religious POV, my kid certainly isn't serving God, but we are all born and live with sin. I also support any church's decisions not to perform weddings and certainly, here in Canada, there have not been legal challenges to churches that have forced them into performing gay marriages.

I can understand the POV that gay marriage is destroying the fabric of society and to some extent, as I age, I there are a ton of other things that are also detrimental to society as well.

Quote: boymimbo

I'm still processing my thoughts on this, and certainly, as her dad, I wonder if there would sway her into being straight. And frankly, I haven't come up with a set of circumstances that would make her gay. My daughter wasn't seduced into homosexuality, but she certainly wasn't told as she grew up to feel that homosexuality was wrong by either her mother or I.

I'm not going to comment on your daughter like some kind of John Edwards but will speak in some generalities. I don't live in Canada, but here in the USA we have the following situation. Pre-early 1970s it was taught outright that homosexuality was wrong. It was classified as a mental health defect. As a kid you were warned about these folks. To have a gay do anything with kids was a no-go from the start. This fit with the anthropological instinct to find homosexual behavior wrong. This was not religious or moral, though that played a part. It is more the "yuck factor" being so strong that regular people will feel if anyone does such behavior they are probably having other problems as well. As I maintain here, the higher rates of depression, drug use, risky behavior, and suicide among gays shows many homosexuals may actually share these feelings.

Early 1970s to 1990s the gay movement started. TV shows started having "lesson" episodes on homosexuals. "Dallas" may be the first. At this same time the rule got established that under no circumstances could a gay character ever be seen in any kind of negative light. The cops could no longer just roust the bath house, but nobody would seriously suggest there was nothing wrong with a gay male tenting with Boy Scouts at an camping trip.

After the early 1990s the full-court press started. Kids had to read "Heather Has Two Mommies" and "Daddy's Roommate" in the low grades of school. A few celebs came out. And there was some kind of "cool" factor to knowing a gay in some circles. It eventually got to where we are today.

BUT-----you still have the natural aversion to it in humanity. And that cannot be changed any more than any other human nature can be. There is always going to be a level of "we shouldn't be doing this" out there. IMHO by education that it is "OK" we are just raising a generation of confused kids.

Quote: AZDuffman

BUT-----you still have the natural aversion to it in humanity. .

That's putting it mildly. I could care less,
but ask your normal young American
lad if he's Gay, and you're liable to get
smacked in the face.

Quote: Evenbob

That's putting it mildly. I could care less,
but ask your normal young American
lad if he's Gay, and you're liable to get
smacked in the face.

I don't know how it is with women, but to almost all men to accuse a guy of being gay or even suggesting it "thems fighting words."

I did once hear two women at work talking among themselves and wondering what it was with guys not wanting to be called gay, the one claimed she would not care if someone said she was a lesbian. I don't think it is as much fighting words with some women, but I can't believe most "wouldn't mind." I think they would mind very much.

Quote: Evenbob

That's putting it mildly. I could care less,
but ask your normal young American
lad if he's Gay, and you're liable to get
smacked in the face.

or banned from certain forums...