Evolution and the Pope

Quote: FrGamble

These are really not scientific questions, but philosophical ones,

All questions pertaining to the nature and origins of matter are scientific ones.

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We do ourselves a disservice when we fail to acknowledge that anything can be truly known.

Anything that can be known can be "truly" known. That doesn't mean everything that is known is "truly" known. And there are things which simply cannot be known with certainty.

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It might be true that some scientific truths might never be known with certitude, however we should acknowledge that many philosophical truths are known with certainty to be true.

Yes, but how does that prove the universe came from nothing or that it was created?

Quote: Nareed

Yes, but how does that prove the universe came from nothing or that it was created?

If the universe was created, this would be
a very disturbing place. I can't wrap my mind
around it. It's why religions get to children
at such an early age and indoctrinate them.
They want their fantasies accepted as
fact by the time the kids can think for
themselves.

Quote: Nareed

All questions pertaining to the nature and origins of matter are scientific ones.

Not necessarily so. If we are talking about the ultimate beginning of all matter, energy, space, and time then we are not talking about a scientific question because there is nothing to observe, no matter to test or experiment, no physical laws to worry about - there is nothing for science to do.

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Yes, but how does that prove the universe came from nothing or that it was created?

Through the preponderance of evidence from science, logic, and philosophy we can prove the universe was created. As long as you understand that the scientific method does not have a monopoly on proving things to be true (see above).

Quote: Evenbob

If the universe was created, this would be
a very disturbing place. I can't wrap my mind
around it. It's why religions get to children
at such an early age and indoctrinate them.
They want their fantasies accepted as
fact by the time the kids can think for
themselves.

Objection - argumentative, badgering, inflammatory, leading, and lack of foundation!

Quote: FrGamble

Through the preponderance of evidence from science, logic, and philosophy we can prove the universe was created.

Do you really think if you just keep repeating
this over and over it will somehow make
it so? It's a fact if you say something often
enough, some people will believe you.
That doesn't make it true, however.

I meant what I said, prove the universe
was created and I'll become a Christian
immediately. All I've seen so far myth
and hyperbole.

Quote: FrGamble

Objection - argumentative, badgering, inflammatory, leading, and lack of foundation!

Not quite. There is a solid foundation in all
religions for teaching children at an early
age. In fact, that's what the monks did in
Calif. They had such a difficult time explaining
the basics of the religion to adults, they all
but gave up and just concentrated on the
little kids. Worked like a charm, they grew
up knowing nothing else and to this day
are very devout people.

Quote: FrGamble

Not necessarily so. If we are talking about the ultimate beginning of all matter, energy, space, and time then we are not talking about a scientific question because there is nothing to observe, no matter to test or experiment, no physical laws to worry about - there is nothing for science to do.

So you think. You may even be right. But we don't know.

We don't even know which beginning we're looking for. The interpretation of the Big Bang is that time originated then. That's something I can't quite accept. It may be time did not pass in the primeval atom, but it ran elsewhere.

Consider a photon, for instance. Photons can only move at the speed of light (they are light). therefore time doesn't pass for a photon anywhere in the universe. yet photons undergo changes all the time. They can gain and lose energy (which manifests as a change in frequency), they can be absorbed, emitted, deflected, etc. all while experiencing no time at all. But time runs "outside" of the photon.

I may be misunderstanding all this, BTW.

Quote: Nareed

But time runs "outside" of the photon.
.

That's a lot of the problem, we're stuck
in time. It's hard to understand that
anything can exist outside of it.

Thank you as always Nareed for a good discussion.

Evenbob, I'm sorry but your repeated false statements concerning missionaries unable to reach the adult converts in the thousands is blatantly not true.

Quote: FrGamble

Evenbob, I'm sorry but your repeated false statements concerning missionaries unable to reach the adult converts in the thousands is blatantly not true.

Neither are the Inquistions, according to the Church.
Dang the history books, when is the Church going
to change them to what 'really' happened.