Evolution and the Pope

Quote: FrGamble

Thank you as always Nareed for a good discussion.

And thank you for making me dip into my stock knowledge of quantum physics.

Evenbob that cartoon is ignorant, offensive, and blatantly false, twisted, and distorted. I ran out of adjectives, but may I please ask you to remove it. Thanks.

He did drown them because they were bad,
he did impregnate Mary, he did have his son
killed. According to legend, that's what happened.
What part is offensive.

So much is said in the presentation of the cartoon and in your summary. It presents God's actions as if punishment is something foreign to our understanding or unhealthy. It makes the incarnation (not impregnation!) into something base rather the greatest act of humility and service, God became man to serve and save - Jesus was not created rather the Word took flesh, and he did this to show His love for us. When you join a group or become part of a family is this a bad or strange thing? If you becomes friends with someone who needs your help is that weird? What is the greatest act of love - to lay down your life for another. God incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ laid down His life, suffered, died and rose again so that sin and death is finally conquered for all people (something which by the way was prefigured by the great flood). The offense is in how it is presented.

It is as if I had a picture of an atheist lying on couch saying, "I just believe that everything mysteriously either popped into being without a cause or has existed forever, which means everything is purposeless and could pop out of being at anytime and nothing I do matters in the grand nonsense of an actual infinity. I am trapped in an imperfect material existence where my intellect, virtue, and efforts ultimately mean nothing. I have no ground to determine what is right or good beside myself and my own desires, but this is all normal right?"

This just got interesting =)

I will say, first off, that I can see how EB's post might be offensive. It's trivialistic toward a subject that to many people is important. However, I'd neither bust it nor suggest EB to remove it simply because, from my view, it is completely true.

Looking at your example, FrG, my first reaction is "Well, not exactly". However, at it's base, it's hard to argue. You've trivialized just as EB has done, and as a result it's not the entire picture. But then again, I can't argue it.

What you've both done is broken down a belief into it's most retarded base. If you had to explain it to a very dull person, or a being outside of humanity, both would be a pretty good start. It serves to minimalize, sure. But in the end, It Is the Truth.

May we all live long enough to see who's right.

Quote: FrGamble

"I just believe that everything mysteriously either popped into being without a cause or has existed forever, which means everything is purposeless and could pop out of being at anytime and nothing I do matters in the grand nonsense of an actual infinity. I am trapped in an imperfect material existence where my intellect, virtue, and efforts ultimately mean nothing. I have no ground to determine what is right or good beside myself and my own desires,"

You nailed it! Nothing you do matters, how could
it. Matters to who? If nothing has a purpose, than
everything is equal and you make your own purpose.
I realize this more and more as I get older, that the
stuff I cared immensely about 40 years ago I never
even think about now. I have new purposes that take
up my time.

Intellect, virtue and effort only mean something in the
very short term, when they are happening. And because
there is no right or wrong, I have to determine what
morals I want to live by. Ever notice that godless societies
like they have in China and Russia, with no religion to
base anything on, have more laws about right and wrong
than we do? Religion likes to say we're lost without the
crutch of religion to cling to, yet we manage to find our
way just fine without it.

Quote: Face

It's trivialistic toward a subject that to many people is important.

That's what makes all religious jokes funny.
Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, being
able to laugh at your own beliefs. It's why
the 'priest, rabbi and atheist walked into
a bar' jokes are so funny.

All religions are silly to outsiders. Look at the
Roman and Greek gods, ridiculous. Or people
that worshiped the sun or the moon or
some carved statue. Laughable. But your own
religion, no matter how bizarre, that has to
be taken seriously by everybody.

Quote: FrGamble

What is the greatest act of love - to lay down your life for another. God incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ laid down His life, suffered, died and rose again so that sin and death is finally conquered for all people (something which by the way was prefigured by the great flood).

That is precisely what's very, very wrong with Christianity in particular: the idea that suffering and death are necessary for redemption, or even that they are god things.

Death, as yet, is unavoidable. Everyone eventually dies. It's how biology works, or at least how it evolved in our planet.

Suffering is not unavoidable or inevitable. It's not desirable, it's not a good thing, and it's only the relief of suffering that is good, not the suffering by itself. To be sure pain, physical and emotional, is a certainty for all people, and many people will experience suffering, too, at various times. But embracing it as if it were good, or causing it as fi it were a virtue, is so abhorrent that the very idea should be fought and utterly destroyed.