Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

Really the universe existing has nothing to do with a cause, please explain?

It's been here forever. (or have you forgotten)

Quote: Evenbob

It's been here forever. (or have you forgotten)

So how does this fit into the Big Bang theory? Most every modern cosmologist I have read has basically said the universe having a beginning is pretty much a given based on the information we have. Why do you go against scientific theory?

Also philosophically if the universe has been here forever without a beginning then I suppose you mean that the universe has an infinite past. That is impossible. If there is this present moment, which I imagine we can all agree there is, then it follows a moment that was previous to it and previous to the one before it and so on and so on all the way back to ..... what? If the previous moments have no end then there can be no present moment. You need to have something that begins time and history or else we cannot have a present or future. What is the foundation for time and history if the universe has been here forever?

Quote: FrGamble

So how does this fit into the Big Bang theory?

You're mistaking our part of the universe
with the entire enchilada. Why do you assume
that the result of the BB is all there is. You
have to think bigger and get away from your
claustrophobic little provincial gods story about
where everything comes from. Never forget
that Yahweh was dreamed up by uneducated
wandering desert nomads who ate with just
their right hand because they used their left
hand to wipe their arses with. And they still
do in that part of the world.

My point is, it's hard to take a god seriously that
was born from such ignorance.

Quote: Evenbob

You're mistaking our part of the universe
with the entire enchilada. Why do you assume
that the result of the BB is all there is.

Because that is what the science tells us. The whole universe, all matter/energy/space/time, the whole enchilada began at the Big Bang.

Quote:

You have to think bigger

You mean just make things up so that they sound better to your belief system. No thanks, I would rather just pursue the truth and change my belief system if it was not true.

Quote:

My point is, it's hard to take a god seriously that
was born from such ignorance.

It is hard to take what you say seriously but I continue to try.

Quote: FrGamble

It is hard to take what you say seriously but I continue to try.

Your god, Yahweh, was gotten by
consolidating a bunch of regional
gods (myths) into one all powerful
all seeing deity. This became the god
of the Jews and the god of Jesus.
A bunch of nomad myths that were
lucky enough to be actually written
down, hence their lasting popularity.
The written word had a power we
cannot conceive of today, it was taken
as absolute truth.

I don't take any of it seriously, neither
should you.

Quote: FrGamble

Really the universe existing has nothing to do with a cause, please explain?

Even if we take your premise that the Universe can't exist without a force outside the known Universe, a god is just one possibility. Your god is just one possible description. And we know you never have any evidence for YOUR god, like I said, better than evidence of UFOs or ghosts.

Plus your god is supposed to be a living god and not just a historical god.
.
If a so-called "miracle" happened in some Pope or nun's name a couple times, they get sainted. But you don't show us how many people who tried it, and it didn't work for them. I assume a lot try. A lot. Random successes isn't evidence of something working purposely except the law of probability.

Quote: rxwine

Even if we take your premise that the Universe can't exist without a force outside the known Universe, a god is just one possibility. Your god is just one possible description. And we know you never have any evidence for YOUR god, like I said, better than evidence of UFOs or ghosts.

Plus your god is supposed to be a living god and not just a historical god.
.
If a so-called "miracle" happened in some Pope or nun's name a couple times, they get sainted. But you don't show us how many people who tried it, and it didn't work for them. I assume a lot try. A lot. Random successes isn't evidence of something working purposely except the law of probability.

If the universe began to exist then it has a cause. That cause isn't necessarily a force outside of itself. You do have to agree that it began at some point however before you can discuss the different theories of what that cause is, otherwise you get ahead of yourself in the argument. I'm not sure though if there is agreement that effects even have causes among this crew.

Quote: pew

If the universe began to exist then it has a cause.

Unless the universe has always been here.
Which it has. You can't wrap your mind
around that because you've been erroneously
taught everything has to have a beginning
and an end.

Quote: Evenbob

Unless the universe has always been here.
Which it has. You can't wrap your mind
around that because you've been erroneously
taught everything has to have a beginning
and an end.

I said IF it began to exist. If there is no agreement that it began to exist then there is no basis for argument beyond that point. If you want to argue the eternality of the universe scientifically that's fine but you would be going against today's "settled science". It's funny that "Big bang" was originally a pejorative term coined by astronomer Fred Hoyle who believed the universe was eternal. I personally believe the universe to be a creation on theological and scientific grounds. I will say though, I could be wrong.

Quote: pew

I will say though, I could be wrong.

That's more than FrG will ever admit.
His Church has quite stringent views
on this subject.