Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

Exactly, to what? Answer: we don't know.

If you would have said we don't know exactly I would agree. However, simple logic can tell us a lot without any observation. We know that this cause must be all-powerful, outside of time, and spiritual (or non-material). If we were to know more we would need God to reveal Himself to us. Good thing He has done so.

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You don't seem to get the observation part of science. Eventually something has to be observed,

I get that part well. What you don't seem to get is that observation is not the only way to know something.

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A logical argument is only as valid as its premises. And premises are only as valid as their underlying assumptions.

Very true. Things like:

all men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal.

This is true whether I observe Socrates or ever seem him die. Here is another one:

Everything that begins to exist needs a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore the universe has a cause.

These premises are valid and so is their conclusion.

Quote: FrGamble

Everything that begins to exist needs a cause.
The universe began to exist..

Unless the universe has been here forever
and had no beginning. Why does this make
perfect sense to me and you can't see it at
all.

You mistake something that happened in
the universe, the BB, and think that is all
there is. We can only observe things with
our built in limitations, and that's mostly
what we are, limited. We make that mistake
over and over. The Church did it when they
closed the case that the sun and planets
revolved around the earth. That is how it
is, shut up about it or we'll censor you.

Quote: Evenbob

Unless the universe has been here forever
and had no beginning. Why does this make
perfect sense to me and you can't see it at
all.

Because I am more like Bill Nye in trusting science and you are more like Ken Ham just believing what you want and ignoring science.

edit: Not to mention you are ignoring simple logic as well.

Quote: FrGamble

Everything that begins to exist needs a cause.

Almost everything that exists has a previous state as far as we know. AND there's a ridiculous amount of examples.

Why would you try to make your example contrary to millions of examples otherwise?

While we can't see anything before the Big Bang, why conclude that's a beginning? It's just a door you can't see the other side of. That doesn't mean it is also a beginning.

Quote: rxwine

Almost everything that exists has a previous state as far as we know. AND there's a ridiculous amount of examples.

Why would you try to make your example contrary to millions of examples otherwise?

While we can't see anything before the Big Bang, why conclude that's a beginning? It's just a door you can't see the other side of. That doesn't mean it is also a beginning.

You are not understanding the premise. An egg and a sperm uniting is a beginning, it starts a person. A spark in the presence H and O2 begins a chemical reaction of heat and water. Whatever is on the other side of the door from the big bang is the beginning. If you don't recognize that fact you can't discuss the issue intelligently.

Quote: FrGamble

However, simple logic can tell us a lot without any observation. We know that this cause must be all-powerful, outside of time, and spiritual (or non-material). If we were to know more we would need God to reveal Himself to us. Good thing He has done so.

Simple logic can tell you anything you want, if your premises need not be factual. Every science fiction writer knows this: your story doesn't need to be scientifically feasible, only internally consistent (logical).

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I get that part well. What you don't seem to get is that observation is not the only way to know something.

It is the only way to definitely know anything. For instance, we don't know that dark matter keeps galaxies from flying apart due to their too-rapid spin. We think it is, and a lot of evidence points to it. But until we observe dark matter in some form, we won't know.

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Everything that begins to exist needs a cause.

You have no proof for that premise.

In your Socrates example, you not only can see other men die, you can see women die, and all living beings eventually die. You have no observation for the latter example.

You're just applying creationist arguments to the whole universe rather than to biology.

Quote: Nareed

It is the only way to definitely know anything.

Not at all. If you see a ball rolling across the floor from behind a wall you can definitely know that some force acted upon that ball and that force was at least strong enough to move the ball. These things you know without a doubt even though you did not observe the action that began the ball in motion.

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You have no proof for that premise.

In your Socrates example, you not only can see other men die, you can see women die, and all living beings eventually die. You have no observation for the latter example.

In the example of the premise in question we have never not seen something begin that didn't need a cause. Everyone and everything we have ever seen is dependent on something else for its existence. Everything and everyone needs a cause to explain its beginning. It might be one of the few premises available to us that is more sure than "all men are mortal."

Quote: FrGamble

Not at all. If you see a ball rolling across the floor from behind a wall you can definitely know that some force acted upon that ball and that force was at least strong enough to move the ball.

Not if it's the first time you see a ball move and can draw on no observations to generalize from.

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In the example of the premise in question we have never not seen something begin that didn't need a cause.

I can see how the universe would be hard to miss, but actually I can't.

The universe as the sum total of all that exists, is categorically different from all things that exist.

Quote: FrGamble

Everything and everyone needs a cause to explain its beginning.

I.E. you need a cause to explain your
god theory, so you make blanket
statements and cover everything with
that blanket.

The universe has been here forever,
we're always in the eternal moment.

Quote: FrGamble

Not at all. If you see a ball rolling across the floor from behind a wall you can definitely know that some force acted upon that ball and that force was at least strong enough to move the ball. These things you know without a doubt even though you did not observe the action that began the ball in motion.

But the spritualists/religionists(?) assign divine causes when they don't see an obvious answer. That's their standard operating procedure. And all they can do is retreat retreat and retreat when we uncover more information. Basicially, they've retreated back to the Big Bang.