Original Sin?

Quote: Nareed

That's too bad for you and your side.

Hey, I'm not the one trying to pass off sophistry as truth you are. Remember sophistry is not defined by being something you disagree with and want to discredit, it actually has to be shown to be logically inconsistent.

Quote: FrGamble

Hey, I'm not the one trying to pass off sophistry as truth you are. Remember sophistry is not defined by being something you disagree with and want to discredit, it actually has to be shown to be logically inconsistent.

I've never come across a single argument for religion, yours included, that were not sophistry in some form.

So, too bad for you.

BTW, everything is greater, or at least different, than the sum of its parts (except piles of spare parts). If you don't believe me, next time you're thirsty, try quenching your thirst by ingesting hydrogen and oxygen rather than water. That's one basic lesson of chemistry: a molecule is not equal to its constituent atoms. Hey, better yet, try to put out a fire by spraying it with hydrogen and oxygen rather than water.

Quote: FrGamble

You are claiming that something exists without a cause, you don't get more supernatural than that. In fact we are claiming related things except I don't believe, because of what we know about science and logic, that material things can be without a beginning. There can also not be a real infinite regress. So your position is self-contradictory. You cannot say that nothing has ever resolved to being from a supernatural cause when how you explain the universe as being eternal is claiming it is itself supernatural without a cause.

What am I claiming?

I was just pointing out your quote of everything has a cause. Of course you suddenly make an exception and propose a god without a cause when you were going on about so many activities having prior causes..

What I am claiming, is not a specific cause, but no cause has ever been of a supernatural nature. So, why start with one?

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Also your position is wrong, at least in the supernatural field. There have been countless people who have been restored to mental health without drugs simply by talking, sharing life, and by prayer or meditation. The cause of this healing is not material but much closer related to the supernatural area of our thoughts and souls.

So what do you think of all the people who prayed in Pope Paul's name and received no miracle? Didn't they ignore that when they decided that he was good for a couple miracles? Thousands or 10's of thousands got to come in contact with him or some article of his at some time or other.

It's a pretty good racket -- those prayer cloths. Some protestants use those as well. Distribute them from their tele-ministries by the thousands then tout the "miracles" of a few individuals. I mean C'MON, if you can't even do it right with one of your Popes involved and your best people on the case, why would I be inclined to believe anything else?

I mean there can be a correct way to attribute an event to something that is at least acceptable for most causes, and that ain't it.

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In 2003 an alleged miracle attributed to his intercession had been discovered in the United States of America. The case involved a fetus in the mother's womb which suffered brain defects that would affect the child. The doctor advised the mother to have an abortion but the mother refused to do so and requested the intercession of the late pope at the behest of a nun who gave her a card with a piece of the late pope's cassock on it. When the child was born, there were no defects that could be detected and the child's health was monitored until it became an adolescent. The child in question still shows no signs of defects.

The inquiry into the miracle closed in 2006 and the case went to a Vatican medical board which met on 12 December 2013 and voted in favour of the miracle which they deemed was "medically unexplainable".[10] Theological advisors met to discuss the miracle on 18 February 2014 and also voted in favour of the miracle which was then forwarded to the members of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. The congregation met on 5 May 2014 and voted that the healing was indeed a miracle attributed to the late pope.[11]

Quote: FrGamble

Hey, I'm not the one trying to pass off sophistry as truth you are. .

soph·ist·ry
ˈsäfəstrē/

the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

All organized religions fall under this
category. A myth is a fallacious argument,
and most religions are made up of myths.
Jesus is half a dozen myths combined, just
like Yahweh is a dozen nomad gods under
one gods name.

Every bit of Jesus was borrowed from other
myths. Virgin birth, raising the dead, miracle
worker, son of a god, dies for sins, rises from
the dead. All borrowed from Greek and Egyptian
folklore.

Quote: Nareed

I've never come across a single argument for religion, yours included, that were not sophistry in some form.

One great form of sophistry is make claims without proof or evidence, it can be very effective as you demonstrate.

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BTW, everything is greater, or at least different, than the sum of its parts (except piles of spare parts). If you don't believe me, next time you're thirsty, try quenching your thirst by ingesting hydrogen and oxygen rather than water. That's one basic lesson of chemistry: a molecule is not equal to its constituent atoms. Hey, better yet, try to put out a fire by spraying it with hydrogen and oxygen rather than water.

I agree.

Quote: FrGamble

One great form of sophistry is make claims without proof or evidence, it can be very effective as you demonstrate.

That's called faith, not sophistry.

Either way, claiming the universe requires a creator or cause because everything in the universe does, is a claim without evidence.

Quote: rxwine

What am I claiming?

You are claiming that the material universe exists without a cause and is eternal. Am I correct?

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I was just pointing out your quote of everything has a cause. Of course you suddenly make an exception and propose a god without a cause when you were going on about so many activities having prior causes.

Not so at all. If you pay close attention my argument is that "everything that begins to exist has a cause". God does not have a beginning, kind of like your conception of the universe, except my belief is actually possible physically and logically. Okay, that was a little snarky and it is Ash Wednesday after all, I'm sorry. The point remains that I did not suddenly make an exception but have always been clear about my premises and why God uniquely does not require a cause because God is non-contingent and does not depend on anything for the reason for His existence.

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What I am claiming, is not a specific cause, but no cause has ever been of a supernatural nature. So, why start with one?

You keep getting more mystical and supernatural as you try not to.

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So what do you think of all the people who prayed in Pope Paul's name and received no miracle? Didn't they ignore that when they decided that he was good for a couple miracles? Thousands or 10's of thousands got to come in contact with him or some article of his at some time or other.

Quote:

In 2003 an alleged miracle attributed to his intercession had been discovered in the United States of America. The case involved a fetus in the mother's womb which suffered brain defects that would affect the child. The doctor advised the mother to have an abortion but the mother refused to do so and requested the intercession of the late pope at the behest of a nun who gave her a card with a piece of the late pope's cassock on it. When the child was born, there were no defects that could be detected and the child's health was monitored until it became an adolescent. The child in question still shows no signs of defects.

The inquiry into the miracle closed in 2006 and the case went to a Vatican medical board which met on 12 December 2013 and voted in favour of the miracle which they deemed was "medically unexplainable".[10] Theological advisors met to discuss the miracle on 18 February 2014 and also voted in favour of the miracle which was then forwarded to the members of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. The congregation met on 5 May 2014 and voted that the healing was indeed a miracle attributed to the late pope.[11]

I'm not quite sure of what you are asking. You give evidence of a miracle and then seem to want an explanation as to why not everyone gets a miraculous healing? This is again where the supernatural comes into play. There are far more miracles in which no one gets a crazy cure but rather they receive a peaceful spirit and the gift of hope through the trials they may face. This prayer is always answered.

Quote: Nareed

That's called faith, not sophistry.

True faith requires evidence or it is more like blind or unhealthy faith. Sophistry again does not.

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Either way, claiming the universe requires a creator or cause because everything in the universe does, is a claim without evidence.

I present as evidence every material thing that every has existed or ever will exist. They all have one common thread, they do not have the reason for their existence in themselves. They are dependent on something or someone else for their existence. Is that enough evidence?

Quote: Evenbob

soph·ist·ry
ˈsäfəstrç/

the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.

All organized religions fall under this
category. A myth is a fallacious argument,
and most religions are made up of myths.

Joseph Campbell would be sooooooooo very disappointed in you Bob, as am I for suggesting this about myth. You know better.

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Jesus is half a dozen myths combined, just
like Yahweh is a dozen nomad gods under
one gods name.

This is simply not true. Hey, I've got a really good idea. I am so excited about a new series by Crash Course all about Mythology. Why don't we start a new thread and when the episodes come out we can reasonable discuss them. Will you do this for me? Remember you promised to let me win something for Lent.

Quote: FrGamble

I present as evidence every material thing that every has existed or ever will exist. They all have one common thread, they do not have the reason for their existence in themselves. They are dependent on something or someone else for their existence. Is that enough evidence?

The universe isn't the equal of the parts within it. I thought we agreed on that.