Is Satan Real

The padre wants to have a whole thread
devoted to this I guess. I think Satan is
every bit as real as god, that is, not at all.

I find it interesting that when you listen to
sermons given in the 30's by evangelicals,
Satan plays a major role. These days he's
hardly even mentioned. Have they given
up scaring people into being believers?

“We are all tempted because the law of our spiritual life, our Christian life, is a struggle. … That’s because the prince of this world, Satan, doesn’t want our holiness; he doesn’t want us to follow Christ,” said Pope Francis during an April 2014 homily.

For 500 years, between 1200 and 1700, the
Vatican had it's henchmen running all over
Europe burning and beheading 'witches' in
what was almost a holocaust. Low estimates
are 40,000 killed, high estimates go into the
hundreds of thousands. The Church certainly
believed Satan was alive and well then.

Pope Francis believes it today. But it seems very
un-PC to even mention it in church, it makes
people uncomfortable, and we don't want that.

Satan is a useful foil for certain religious liberty issues. Basically because religions can claim anything.

Were current Islamic extremism only under a belief system like a political idea, it would be easier to deal with. (IMO).

Witches can get things done for them, holidays observed, under religious freedom. Let me try to get an extra holiday under normal belief. I suppose it can be done, but there is an argument for religion that people like to reserve special belief under religion.

I'd argue "conscientious objector" is a special, not necessarily religious belief that can free you from military obligation. But I think it's much easier to associate your belief with religious freedom than alone on itself.

A possible derail, but I've always wondered what was so wrong with Satan to begin with.

If I remember correctly (and there's a real good chance I don't), Satan is the angel Lucifer. He was "the morning star", the "bringer of light". He was up with God doing godly things, just another soldier in the hierarchy.

Lucifer was gorgeous, as most angels are represented as being. He though himself so pretty he became proud. Pride is a "sin", so he was cast from Heaven by God.

What happened to hate the sin, love the sinner?
Why wasn't Lucifer given another chance? Repent and ye shall be saved?
Why is he all cloven hoofed and dirty now? He was gorgeous...
If cast out of Heaven, if turned into a monster, why was God chilling with him around the sports book that was Job?
If Satan was just a pompous pretty boy (think Jersey Shore), why is he now the embodiment of ALL sin?
If an angel, how did he have free will to become proud to begin with?

I could go on.

I probably will.

Quote: Face

I probably will.

Please do.

I admit I know little about Lucifer, and what I do know is rather contradictory.

Quote: rxwine

Satan is a useful foil for certain religious liberty issues. Basically because religions can claim anything.

I'm sure the padre will say none of this
is true, the Church has no history prior
to 1900. They sure were threatened by
those pesky pagans, they just wouldn't
go away.


1227: Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisitional Courts to arrest, try, convict and execute heretics.
1252: Pope Innocent IV wrote a papal bull titled "Ad exstirpanda" which authorized the use of torture during inquisitional trials. This greatly increased the conviction rate.
1258: Pope Alexander IV instructed the Inquisition to confine their investigations to cases of heresy. They were to not investigate charges of divination or sorcery unless heresy was also involved.
1265: Pope Clement IV reaffirms the use of torture.
1326: The Church authorized the Inquisition to investigate Witchcraft and to develop "demonology." This is the theory of the diabolic origin of Witchcraft. 1
1330: The popular concept of Witches as evil sorcerers is expanded to include belief that they swore allegiance to Satan, had sexual relations with the Devil, kidnapped and ate children, etc. Some religious conservatives still believe this today.
1347 to 1349: The Black Death epidemic killed a sizeable part of the European population. Conspiracy theories spread. Lepers, Jews, Muslims and Witches were accused of poisoning wells and spreading disease.
1430's: Christian theologians started to write articles and books which "proved" the existence of Witches. 2
1436-7: Johannes (John) Nider wrote a book called Formicarius, which describe the prosecution of a man for Witchcraft. Copies of this book were often added to the Malleus Maleficarum in later years. Some sources say that the author Thomas of Brabant; this is apparently an error.
1450: The first major witch hunts began in many western European countries. The Roman Catholic Church created an imaginary evil religion, using stereotypes that had circulated since pre-Christian times. They said that Pagans who worshiped Diana and other Gods and Goddesses were evil Witches who kidnapped babies, killed and ate their victims, sold their soul to Satan, were in league with demons, flew through the air, met in the middle of the night, caused male impotence and infertility, caused male genitals to disappear, etc. Historians have speculated that this religiously inspired genocide was motivated by a desire by the Church to attain a complete religious monopoly, or was "a tool of repression, a form of reining-in deviant behavior, a backlash against women, or a tool of the common people to name scapegoats for spoiled crops, dead livestock or the death of babies and children." Walter Stephens, a professor of Italian studies at Johns Hopkins University, proposes a new theory: "I think Witches were a scapegoat for God." 3 Religious leaders felt that they had to retain the concepts of both an omnipotent and an all-loving deity. Thus, they had to invent Witches and demons in order to explain the existence of evil in the world. This debate, about how an all-good and all-powerful God can coexist in the world with evil is now called Theodicy. Debate continues to the present day.
1450: Johann Gutenberg invented moveable type which made mass printing possible. This enabled the wide distribution of Papal bulls and books on Witch persecution; the witch hunt was greatly facilitated.
1484: Pope Innocent VIII issued a papal bull "Summis desiderantes" on DEC-5 which promoted the tracking down, torturing and executing of Satan worshipers.
1486-1487: Institoris (Heinrich Kraemer) and Jacob Sprenger published the Malleus Maleficarum (The Witches' Hammer). It is a fascinating study of the authors' misogyny and sexual frustration. It describes the activities of Witches, the methods of extracting confessions. It was later abandoned by the Church, but became the "bible" of those secular courts which tried Witches.
1500: During the 14th century, there had been known 38 trials against Witches and sorcerers in England, 95 in France and 80 in Germany. 4 The witch hunts accelerated. "By choosing to give their souls over to the devil witches had committed crimes against man and against God. The gravity of this double crime classified witchcraft as crimen exceptum, and allowed for the suspension of normal rules of evidence in order to punish the guilty." 7 Children's testimony was accepted. Essentially unlimited torture was applied to obtain confessions. The flimsiest circumstantial evidence was accepted as proof of guilt.

I'm unable to respond right now to this thread but I was so flabbergasted by Bob's statistics that I thought I had to respond briefly. I challenge him to give a credible historical source for any deaths during the inquisition period totaling more than 10,000. While more than one death is too many; to use such outlandish numbers starts our discussion off on the wrong foot.

Quote: FrGamble

I challenge him to give a credible historical source for any deaths during the inquisition period totaling more than 10,000. .

Oh no, you're not going to drag me down
that road. I went thru this 20 years ago in
my Wicca phase. Nobody could come up
a number that everybody agreed on. 10K
is fine with me, because a religion taking
even one life in the name of their Holy
Superiority is grossly repugnant.

And of course the Protestants went on with
the fine tradition of abusing human rights
after they split from the Church. And because
it's all just one big religion, that's not really
surprising.

Thanks for that admission Bob.

As Face pointed out to begin to discuss Satan it might be helpful to quickly mention what Catholics believe about angels. Satan is a fallen angel and Lucifer means "light bearer". An angel is a purely spiritual being and as such is not restricted by time or space. This means when the angels were created they understood God's plan. A plan that including the creation of human beings, a unique being of spirit and flesh. They also immediately understood the unique role human beings would have in God's eyes and the love He would bestow on them. God meant to create humanity in love and desire to serve them, sacrifice for them, and give them the gift of eternal life. Lucifer, using his free will at the moment of the angels creation decided there is no way someone as awesome, beautiful, intelligent, and powerful as me is going to serve anyone, much less these mongrel humans. He might have said they are no more important than cockroaches, but no one is quite sure. Traditionally the famous phrase he shouted was, "I WILL NOT SERVE!!!"

We all know people in our lives that will not serve. The people who think the whole world is all about them and no one else is important are the most grotesque of people. In their attempt to be the best and lord it over everyone else they distort and disfigure themselves. This is what happen to Lucifer. He was cast out of Heaven and Hell was prepared for Him and all the other fallen angels now demons.

The reason his sin can't be forgiven is because it was made in the free will of angels who see and know the perfect picture of what God's plan is and what will take place. Knowing all this Satan permanently and completely chose to reject God, their is no going back for the angels once they choose a side. Since we have very limited understanding of future events and suffer from misunderstandings, addictions, weaknesses, etc. our sin or decisions are never permanent, at least until our last breath.

Finally, the reason why he is the father of ALL sin is because when you boil sin down it also comes down to us putting ourselves above either others, or God, or both.

I could go on and I probably will.

Quote: FrGamble

Traditionally the famous phrase he shouted was, "I WILL NOT SERVE!!!"

Is he still single?

Quote: Nareed

Is he still single?

Rare it is that I literally LOL. Thanks =D

On Satan, I think I get it. Much like Wiz's views on tenured members, the angels were held to a sort of higher standard. So for them to break is a much more serious offense, as they should have known better.

But, and this thought is just sort of materializing now, you seem to say humans are spared this harsh judgement because we don't have that perfect knowledge. We have Free Will 2.0 and stuff. We make mistakes and do wrongs, but it's OK, as God forgives us. All we need do is ask.

So, if that's true, and I think I follow, what's the point of Jesus? I mean, forget the philosopher and the teacher and the leader... his main goal was to set us free of sin, right? To die for our sins, so we are relieved of them. But pre-Jesus, people were already able to sin and atone, to break a rule and repent. What did his greatest feat accomplish?

Sorry if that sounds childish. While this path may be well trod, this is my first time down it.