Is Satan Real

Quote: Evenbob

Nareed and I have the same 'problem' with the
Church. We see the current church thru the prism
of the past church. It's impossible to separate the
two because they claim it's all god's work. So to
me, and I think to Nareed, there is no difference
between 500 BC and 500 AD and and 2000 AD.

This is not what the Church likes to hear. They want
everybody to forget the past and move on. Not
gonna happen.

Oh my, there is so much wrong with your thinking here. First of all the Church does not claim it is all God's work. The Church has been very clear about its mistakes in the past. You continue to view the Church as an angelic structure that descended from Heaven and should be perfect - that was Jesus. The Church He established is like His apostles, fallible people who do stupid things. In this way the Church is like you or I. Therefore we too can have hope that God can work through us even though we are not perfect.

Don't forget the past, learn from it and move forward to be better. This is what the Church has done and continues to do today. This is what we should all do as well.

Quote: FrGamble

Our nature is fallen and we sin, all of us. How do you explain this?
.

Padre, you believe your nature is fallen, why
do you have to include all of us in that? You
sin because you believe you do, not because
reality bears it out. Your beliefs are yours, why
are you so insecure about them that you have
to try and force us to believe them to, just so you'll
feel better about the decisions you've made.

How do you explain that?

You write this as if you don't sin or make mistakes or do things you wish you wouldn't do. I think reality bears out the fact that you do. My beliefs are an attempt to explain and make sense of why this phenomenon of sin is not unique to you or I, but to all of humanity.

We talk about things like this on forums to share knowledge and ideas not to force people to believe in them. I have found what I believe is the truth and I want to share with others and hear what they have to say. If I was just trying to feel better about the decisions I've made believe me I would be on another forum. On this forum my ideas are challenged and I am forced to think sometimes more deeply about them.

Quote: FrGamble

You must not be reading Christian philosophers

My bad. I thought someone with the title "St." in front of his name was bound to be Christian. I must have been mistaken.

Fallen, broken, imperfect, slave to the flesh, greedy, etc. are also not words used to describe humanity by any Christian ever, I take it.

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I know you have blocked Evenbob (he really wants to make amends by the way)

Who?

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How could Satan be so stupid? Well, sin is stupidity.

Then I'm sorry to tell you God's been licked. Schiller pointed out "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." Game, set, match. It's time to give up the fight and join the victorious opposition, as the sage Ambrose Bierce advised.

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I get the impression you think I am spouting new age theology stuff here. No way man, I'm conservative in my theological understandings. The Church has NEVER said anyone is in hell.

The church has never said anyone isn't. Again Dante wasn't as much as reproached for picturing lots of people there. Some church in Italy has a fresco of Muhammad in Hell. The evidence is overwhelming. And did I tell you about a friend of mine whose parish priest told him his parents would wind up in Hell because they were divorced? That was in 1988.

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As in dare we hope in the infinite mercy of God that all might be saved?

Dare we call God's bluff?

Sure. A bluff by a non-existent entity is bound to be pretty hollow.

"You write this as if you don't sin."

I make mistakes, I just don't have the arrogance
to think I'm going against some non existent
god when I do. That's a dangerous path to go down,
as we've seen from religious history. It leads
people to believe they are better than others,
and that often erupts in violence, as we've seen in
Islam.

Quote: FrGamble

I have found what I believe is the truth.

So you admit that it's not the provable truth, but what you
believe to be the truth? It's not the same thing, you
know. The earth is round is the truth, flat earth people
believe their own 'truth'.

Quote: Nareed

My bad. I thought someone with the title "St." in front of his name was bound to be Christian. I must have been mistaken.

Fallen, broken, imperfect, slave to the flesh, greedy, etc. are also not words used to describe humanity by any Christian ever, I take it.

Do you deny that these words describe humanity? Also if you keep reading these saints I think you will always find a hope of redemption. There is an idea that these adjectives like greedy are so atrocious because they were not who we were made to be. The Christian understands that we were made good and goodness is our calling. We can recover the wonderful image and likeness we were made for.

This is radically different than the idea that we have no underlying nature, purpose, or significance. The difference between a Christian and a atheist talking about humanity is that one recognizes the goodness inherent in humanity, rails against our unnatural depravity, and sees the hope of change. The other sees us for simply what we manifest ourselves to be and recognizes in us no otherworldly significance or calling to be anything special. If you are looking for a depressing view of humanity you will have to find it from someone without the "St." before their name.

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Then I'm sorry to tell you God's been licked. Schiller pointed out "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."

Sometimes I feel like this is true.

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The church has never said anyone isn't. Again Dante wasn't as much as reproached for picturing lots of people there. Some church in Italy has a fresco of Muhammad in Hell. The evidence is overwhelming. And did I tell you about a friend of mine whose parish priest told him his parents would wind up in Hell because they were divorced? That was in 1988.

I recognize that many people have personal experiences from priests or nuns that are negative. Many who have great experiences too. However, the Popes and official teachings of the Church trump this poor parish priest and it is a shame that we use these things as evidence against the more authoritative, objective, and universal evidence of the official teachings of the Church.

Quote: Evenbob

"You write this as if you don't sin."

I make mistakes, I just don't have the arrogance
to think I'm going against some non existent
god when I do.

I understand and you have made it clear that you don't believe in God. Instead when you make these mistakes you recognize them as mistakes because they go against some existent sense in you of what is good or bad. This is often called our conscience and it is something different than you or your psyche. It judges you and helps you to recognize when you make a mistake. The next questions then is where does this conscience or existent sense in you come from?

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So you admit that it's not the provable truth, but what you
believe to be the truth? It's not the same thing, you
know. The earth is round is the truth, flat earth people
believe their own 'truth'.

Are you looking here for mathematical proof or the same scientific proof that we have that the earth is flat? I though we made it clear that this is not the type of proof one gets for making some of the most important life changing decisions we make all the time. To answer questions like is there a God or does my spouse love me or should I change jobs - you are not going to find the same evidence and proof you will for proving the angles of a triangle equal 180. This doesn't make these decisions subjective or untrue. These big decisions require us to not only use the evidence we gain from the hard sciences but also the use of our reason, judgment, and probability. If you think deciding if there is a God or not is as simple of seeing a photo of a round earth from space than no wonder you are confused.

@ FrGamble, my daughter had sent me this a while back. I am drawn to share it with you?

Christian Rock and Roll, http://youtu.be/KQE5PNRLZ40

@ Big tent revival, "two sets of Jones",,,,enjoy

Quote: FrGamble

If you think deciding if there is a God or not is as simple of seeing a photo of a round earth from space than no wonder you are confused.

I'm not confused about anything, do I
sound confused? You love to use these
tricks, like constantly telling someone
they are 'confused'. Soon they start to
believe they indeed are confused.

Deciding if there is a god is very simple,
if your mind hasn't already been poisoned
by religious dogma. As a non confused
adult, you look around for evidence of a
god, and see none at all. You see a world
of balanced opposites. Good and
bad, light and dark, yin and yang. You
understand that you create your own reality,
with the beliefs you have. You control most
of what happens to you by the decisions
you make. You aren't a pawn with a planned
destiny, you make your own destiny, for the
most part.

Yours is that of a priest. Mine is as an atheist.
I can accept yours with no problem. Why do
you have a problem with mine.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you deny that these words describe humanity?

I most certainly deny it.

Humanity is not fallen, humanity is not broken, humanity is not imperfect and humanity does not need to be redeemed from imaginary failings.

Humanity is soul-stirring art, grandiose buildings and industries, the conquest of space and time, the apprehension of the Universe and all it contains. Humanity is knowledge and scholarship, business and trade, cities and roads. Humanity is that collection of individuals who have changed the face of the Earth for their own comfort and well-being. Humanity is love and kindness and acceptance, overcoming prejudice and overcoming baseless mistrust based on shallow differences.

But I guess as an atheist I must despise humanity. Silly me.