Was Jesus God?

Quote: FrGamble

. A guilt and shamed person is in need of forgiveness and conversion.

So you admit that's what the Church needs,
the guilty and the shamed. I had sex out of
wedlock plenty of times and guilt about it
never even occurred to me. Never, not once.
In fact, it's ludicrous. What's there to feel
guilty about. If somebody had tried to guilt
and shame me, if it was a guy I would probably
have punched him in the face for sticking
his nose in my business. Guilt and shame
are pointless emotions, they are for children
who don't know any better.

Quote:

Why do you think it is humiliating to ask for forgiveness? Have you ever done that?

If I wronged somebody, would I ask for their
forgiveness? I have no idea, I try not to do
that. I never had sex with married women
because I didn't want to put the husband in
that position. I try not to do things that would
require someone to forgive me. Don't you?

Quote:

Guilt and shame put you in the hands of the devil

Who? There is no such thing. Guilt and
shame make you unhappy, so try not to
do things that make you feel guilt and
shame. Monitor what you do, live within
your moral code. It's really all there is to it.

Quote: FrGamble

Did you experience the freedom and joy that come from being forgiven? There is nothing greater.

Logically, then, one ought to sin as much as possible, in order to be forgiven and experience this greatest feeling often.

As they said in old, campy SF movies "Does not compute."

Quote:

A guilt and shamed person is in need of forgiveness and conversion. They are not happy and not able to evangelize and be who God is calling them to be. Guilt and shame put you in the hands of the devil, the Church is here to lift them up and free them from that!

Ah, I get it.

"You seem rather happy."
"Shouldn't I be."
"After all, I broke one of your laws."
"What do you think they're there for? There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kinds of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted—and you create a nation of lawbreakers—and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

Bob, the Church is all about the elimination of guilt and /or shame. That's the goal and the end result. A happy, joyful, free, holy, kind, and loving people who evangelize the world in how they live and pray. I don't know where you get this strange idea that any Church or religion would be about making people feel bad.

Your example about pre-marital sex is telling. First that you would react by punching someone is a clear indication that you aren't as conscience free as you think you are. Secondly, the reason you don't feel guilt or shame is because you aren't really thinking about it. You've let society brainwash you. A moment's thought and you would realize you used someone for your own pleasure, risked an unwanted pregnancy, STDs, and maybe most importantly messed with both your emotions and hers. If you just used your big head instead of your small one it's pretty obvious premarital sex is not a smart thing to do.

I like your advice try not to do things that make you feel guilt and shame. That shows me that you do recognize there are actions that do cause you guilt and shame. Those things would be sin, by the way, glad we could finally clear that up. You say that we should just live in our own moral code, good idea. My point is that we cannot even do this!?! I'm sure you have your own moral code and I'm just as sure you have broken it. This is the reality and proof of original sin.

Quote: Nareed

Logically, then, one ought to sin as much as possible, in order to be forgiven and experience this greatest feeling often.

Ah ah, now you are thinking like St. Paul who asks this very question in his letter to the Romans.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't know where you get this strange idea that any Church or religion would be about making people feel bad.

Really? Are you joking?

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A moment's thought and you would realize you used someone for your own pleasure, risked an unwanted pregnancy, STDs,

And she used me, duh. And sorry to
disappoint you, but protection was
always used and some knowledge
of sexual history. You act like I was
a monkey, just sticking it in whenever
I found a warm place. Is that really how
the Church views sex? You think we're
all clueless idiots?

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I like your advice try not to do things that make you feel guilt and shame. That shows me that you do recognize there are actions that do cause you guilt and shame.

Duh, ya think? This is really very insulting.
It shows you I know what causes guilt and
shame?? Why the hell wouldn't I, I grew
up in the same culture you did. I had the
same experiences, watched the same TV
shows, read the same books in school.

You're somewhat of what we used to call
a pompous ass, aren't you. You have a
very elevated opinion of yourself as the
moral arbiter of everybody else. Get over
it, padre, you have the same stink attached
to you that the rest of us has. And there's
no god to save you from that..

Quote: FrGamble

Ah ah, now you are thinking like St. Paul who asks this very question in his letter to the Romans.

I suppose he then found some pretzel-logic sophistry with which to undo the "greatest feeling" bit. IN the end it all comes down to the Futurama joke "It's free shipping that you pay for!"

Yep, I'm in need of a savior too and thank God for both of us that He is very real.

Quote: FrGamble

Yep, I'm in need of a savior

Only because you're too scared to live as
an adult and make your own decisions.
If you're past the age of 12 and still need a
daddy figure to give you constant approval,
even a mythical daddy figure, you have a
big problem. Learn to think for yourself,
it's well worth the effort.

I just cringe when I hear the ad on
TV that says god's love is unconditional,
he loves everybody the same.

"Any cursory reading of the Bible shows that God’s love is ALWAYS conditional.. It is clear from Genesis 6-8 that God’s love was NOT unconditional, and no matter where a person reads in the Bible, they are going to find that God’s love is conditional. If the Bible is anything, it is the written record of God’s wrath, vengeance, and hate towards those who do not accept and act on the conditions he gives them. The gospel message of the Bible is this, Do THIS and thou shalt live. Either we do things God’s way or he makes us pay."

That's an ex Christian minister writing the
above. He knows there are conditions for
his god's love, I wish the Church would
quit saying there aren't any.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2014/01/does-god-love-us-unconditionally/

Oh Bob, you are so very confused about what love is. God's love is unconditional but reality is not. If you do things that are wrong there will be punishment, this is just a fact. However, no matter what you have done wrong and no matter what punishment you must endure because of it God will still love you and forgive you. Love doesn't somehow save us from the reality of our actions but it does remain faithful to us and supports us through them. In all the stories of the Old Testament God's "wrath" as you call it is easily avoidable and God pleads through the prophets and through the hearts of mankind for them to avoid the sin. You also, at least from a Christian perspective, must mention that the Old Testament is not the end of the story. The New Testament shows God Himself taking our punishment for our mistakes. This is unconditional love at its height. You still will hurt yourself and others if you do wrong but the guilt of sin has been forgiven and the possibility of ultimate happiness is always unconditionally open to us.