Jesus & Horus. Coincidence?

Quote: petroglyph

Strawman argument

It is not the best argument, but its not a strawman.

Quote: Pacomartin

Are you really bashing Mother Teresa?

Not bashing. But there sure were a lot
of stories floating around when she was
alive from people who knew here that
painted her in a different light than the
Church did. Then after she died it really
hit the fan.

Quote: Pacomartin

Are you really bashing Mother Teresa?

Mother Teresa was a human being and not a Saint. If you like to read some of the other side of her read "Mother Teresa - Beyond the Image" by Anne Sebba. I am not sure if it was the author of this book but I listened to a long interview many years ago with a former Nun that spent 10 years with her and was the second highest ranking Nun in her order when she left. Probably lots of sour grapes in that interview but she didn't have the same compassion for the others in her order that she had for her 'flock'.

Having said all that she definately accomplished with her life what we should all strive for. The results of our personal actions should leave the world a better place.

Quote: FrGamble

It is not the best argument, but its not a strawman.

Not in the classic sense.

But in the future I shall first huff and puff and try to blow the argument down ;)

Quote: petroglyph

Strawman argument

I would find it ironic that the Father Gamble would get accused of using a Straw Man argument. He is being besieged with every possible bit of history that can be used against the Catholic church.

Most of the world does not view Jesus, Ghandi's or MLK, Jr as self centered men primarily interested in their own advancement.

Quote: Pacomartin

I would find it ironic that the Father Gamble would get accused of using a Straw Man argument. He is being besieged with every possible bit of history that can be used against the Catholic church.

Not my fault there is so much lousy history made by that institution.

Consider this: Diocletian, late in his reign, instituted persecutions of Christians. His successor (Lichinius?) continued them. This is a terrible thing. But the Christians had an out: they could perform a sacrifice to the gods and be let off. I forget whether they also had to renounce Christianity. Either way, they were acting under duress and bore no moral responsibility for any "sins" they might commit.

Many chose death anyway. But many more complied with the authorities and lived. When the persecutions ended and Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which made it safe to be a Christian again, the latter group was largely not allowed back into the fold. This created one of the earliest splits, as some congregations did welcome the "sinners" back if they repented.

This is important because Constantine also embraced Christianity and thus made Christians a force in the Empire, almost overnight. What did the Christians do with their new found temporal power? They persecuted, if more gently in the temporal plane, fellow Christians who chose not to martyr themselves.

Now, you tell me martyrdom is a good thing, I will argue about the roots of it and the moral lack of merit as well.

There is much to admire in a man like Martin Luther King. Not least the fact that he knew he was endangering his life by doing his work, and went ahead and pursued his goals anyway. But the fact that he was murdered is not what made him a great man. Seriously, would you think less of him if he had lived a long life, like Nelson Mandela did? Would you think more highly of George Washington if he had been hung by the British?

Quote: Nareed

Would you think more highly of George Washington if he had been hung by the British?

In mainstream USA history and in Protestant thought in general, martyrdom or iconography is not front and center. Patrick Henry's "Give me Liberty or Give me Death" is about as close as American history comes to a martyr.

I am completely unaware of martyrs in traditional Jewish theology. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob nor were not martyred, nor were Noah, David and Solomon.Although I am not fluent in bible history I don't think Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel, or the Minor Prophets Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi were martyred.



But I am not used to the idea of villifying martyrdom and self sacrifice.

Quote: Nareed

Not my fault there is so much lousy history made by that institution.

Indeed. And we barely touched on a lot
of it here. It took the Vatican till 2000
to publicly apologize to Galileo. Yet FrG
constantly tells us the Church loves science
and has always supported it with open arms.

Not apologizing till 2000 shows the snooty
and arrogant attitude the Church really has
for science, and has always had.

Quote: Pacomartin

I would find it ironic that the Father Gamble would get accused of using a Straw Man argument.

Maybe it is, Paco? I conversely thought it ironic that the Padre was invoking Gandhi [a Hindu] and MLK, [a Lutheran] to support his Catholic viewpoint. To me it would be just as appropriate to invoke Elvis.

Quote:

He is being besieged with every possible bit of history that can be used against the Catholic church.

Not from me.

Quote:

Most of the world does not view Jesus, Ghandi's or MLK, Jr as self centered men primarily interested in their own advancement.

Who said the world did view Mahatma or Martin as self centered men other than FrG?

quote: "MLK, Jr. believed in equality for all because of his religion. I dare you or anyone to hold that his stance was selfish or the ultimate in folly"

Maybe I took this out of context? I got caught up in the spirit of the argument and the opponents seem pretty evenly matched between the Atheists and the Catholic pov.

You pointing this out is more evidence I should have stayed out of it. And thank you by the way. I was caught up in the moment and frankly a little offended, but so far am not willing to completely retract my statement.

Quote: Evenbob

'How would Jesus be a hero in anybody's eyes,
he let himself be murdered, didn't put up a fight.
Same for the so called 'martyrs', dying for a religious
cause is just silly. Dying on purpose for something
you can't prove exists seems the ultimate in folly.

Quote: Evenbob

Dying for a religious fantasy is showing
just how full of yourself you really are. I
don't see why that should be venerated, it
just causes others to act in similar irresponsible
ways.

Quote: Evenbob

I don't think it's self-less,
it's actually self-ish. It's a 'look at me,
aren't I full of myself' gesture to die
for some religious idea when you don't
have to.

As you can see from the above quotes, it is these thoughts that I and Paco, and probably many others, are taking issue with.
By the way Ghandi and Martin Luther King, both fervent believers in God, don’t have to be Catholic for their considerable example and witness to be used to show the power of martyrdom, sacrifice, and love for all people. In my mind they are saints along with Mother Teresa.