God and Gay Marriage

Quote: Mosca

Men and women are different under the law, how? In what way should the law address the differences? In what way should the law make one or the other less than equal? Think before you answer.

Men and women are equal under the law, except in cases where something applies only to one gender such as maternity laws and such. The law addresses these differences because of the inherent uniqueness of men and women. It does not address the differences by trying to make no distinctions between men and women. It respects the unique character of each and crafts laws that honor and respect those differences. This in no way makes one or the other less than equal. Men and women are different and this is reflected in the law, yet they are at the same time considered equal.

Let me preempt an argument that I hear often. Some people say this is creating a "separate but equal" situation. This hearkens when this phrase was used as a racist slogan and we all dislike it. In the case of a black person or a white person there is no fundamental difference. As MLK, Jr. said we should not be judged by the color of our skin but the content of our character. Skin color is skin deep, that is it. The real differences between men and women however not only effect our plumbing, but our personalities, strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes. It is not wrong to treat different things differently as long as we also grant equality. There are real differences because of gender and therefore there are real differences in same-sex versus heterosexual relationships. We should not call them both the same thing. It would be like calling every human being an it, rather than a he or she.

Quote: Evenbob

It's a minor difference, and you have just
offended Gay adoptive parents everywhere.
Seriously, they hate it when they get painted
with that brush. They are just as capable,
sometimes more so, of bringing up healthy,
well adjusted kids.

What are you reading? I don't remember ever saying gay couples or straight couples could not adopt a baby and do a great job raising it. You asked for a difference, I gave it to you and you went on a strange tangent trying to say things I never said. It is not offensive to couples who adopt to say that they are not the biological mother or father, they know that. It sounds like you are grasping at straws.

Quote: FrGamble

Men and women are equal under the law, except in cases where something applies only to one gender such as maternity laws and such. The law addresses these differences because of the inherent uniqueness of men and women. It does not address the differences by trying to make no distinctions between men and women. It respects the unique character of each and crafts laws that honor and respect those differences. This in no way makes one or the other less than equal. Men and women are different and this is reflected in the law, yet they are at the same time considered equal.

Let me preempt an argument that I hear often. Some people say this is creating a "separate but equal" situation. This hearkens when this phrase was used as a racist slogan and we all dislike it. In the case of a black person or a white person there is no fundamental difference. As MLK, Jr. said we should not be judged by the color of our skin but the content of our character. Skin color is skin deep, that is it. The real differences between men and women however not only effect our plumbing, but our personalities, strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes. It is not wrong to treat different things differently as long as we also grant equality. There are real differences because of gender and therefore there are real differences in same-sex versus heterosexual relationships. We should not call them both the same thing. It would be like calling every human being an it, rather than a he or she.

I have no intention of invoking an argument of analogies. One is not needed. You start from an assumption that homosexuality is wrong, and I start from an indifference to it. It is the assumption that homosexuality is wrong that is the source of your error. As I said, you always start with assumptions.

Quote: FrGamble

Because men and women are different, surely this is true.

This is a non-sequitur.

Quote:

As many of the judges themselves said the court using its judicial power to legislate is odd and extremely destructive.

Striking down unfair, unjust, cruel and unconstitutional bans on same sex marriage is not legislating.

Quote: FrGamble

There are real differences because of gender and therefore there are real differences in same-sex versus heterosexual relationships. We should not call them both the same thing.

Why is it of all these real difference you cannot bring up a single one, but instead indulge in ever longer misdirection?

Quote: Nareed

Why is it of all these real difference you cannot bring up a single one, but instead indulge in ever longer misdirection?

Nareed I am a little puzzled by your comments. You might be best able to answer this question better than anyone. Gender matters deeply to you. I think in thinking about what you are going through and why you will recognize many differences and don't need me to list them. Outside of your more profound recognition that maleness and femaleness go beyond our plumbing I think any of us could give a cursory look around and see that we way women and men talk, think, dress, receive advertising, listen to music, etc. are all different.

Quote: Mosca

I have no intention of invoking an argument of analogies. One is not needed. You start from an assumption that homosexuality is wrong, and I start from an indifference to it. It is the assumption that homosexuality is wrong that is the source of your error. As I said, you always start with assumptions.

You don't seem to have an intention of arguing at all. You seem to be playing the role of the sophist. Never in this conversation so far as the rightness or wrongness of homosexuality come up. We are talking about legislation and secular laws and we don't want to get into legislating morality. Your assumption that the morality of homosexuality is an important part of our current discussion is where you are wrong and if you are starting from that assumption how can we move forward?

If you don't like analogies than again all I am saying is that same-sex unions are different than heterosexual marriages. I have heard no one say that they are not or give any reasons why they are exactly the same. If they are intrinsically different than using different words to describe or define them just makes sense. I know you don't like logic, but I don't know how else to put it. The state can grant equal rights to civil unions and marriages like it does for men and women. Sorry for the analogy again.

Quote: Nareed

Striking down unfair, unjust, cruel and unconstitutional bans on same sex marriage is not legislating.

If one is able to have the same rights as marriage how is a ban on same-sex marriage cruel, unfair, or unjust?

Quote: FrGamble

all I am saying is that same-sex unions are different than heterosexual marriages.

And surely an adopted child CAN never be of the flesh of natural parents, because it is not born of them. It is merely a convention to pretend adoption is not second rate.

Wouldn't someone who believes the above convey great pain to adopted kids who preach it? Yet it is surely true. And yet you insist similar on gays.

I think my point above is to make the point that the "flesh" in both cases is not what makes the relationship completely significant. You can love a child not of your own flesh just as much.

To call it less is -- well repugnant.