In decline.

Quote: FrGamble

You obviously don't understand the mystery of sin.

Were you trying to make me burst out
laughing? Sin isn't a mystery at all. How
can something made up out of whole
cloth be a mystery? The real mystery is
why people believe almost everything
they're told.

When I was trying to be a Christian 40
years ago, my Xtion Phase, they were
so obsessed with sin that I started
asking what was the origin of it and
could it be proven. They acted like
I had a big stinky chunk of dog poop
stuck to my foot, and got away from
me fast. You don't question sin, you
just accept that it's real.

I don't think so..

Quote: FrGamble

Was it wrong when we went to war with Germany because of what they were doing to the Jews?

So you ignore my question about god killing
all the first born males and ask another question
instead. And we didn't go to war with Germany
for that reason, what they were doing to the Jews
was just a rumor. We went to war because
Germany declared war on us a few days after Pearl
Harbor. We had little choice.

Quote: FrGamble

Because science is the only source of knowledge.

It's the only reliable source. If you can
prove something with science, you can
study it and learn from it.

When you study god in religion, all
you're doing is studying what people
think god is. It's like studying our old
friend the unicorn. Pretty much a
waste of time.

I can't find anyplace else that talks about
sin like you do. This leads me to believe
this is just your take on it. That's fine,
sin doesn't exist, therefore it can be
what you want it to be.

Quote: Evenbob

So you ignore my question about god killing
all the first born males and ask another question
instead. And we didn't go to war with Germany
for that reason, what they were doing to the Jews
was just a rumor.

So you ignore the point of my question. If we did know what the Germans were doing to the Jews would it be wrong to go to war with them? What if we gave them 10 warnings about what was going to happen to them if they continued to kill the innocent children of their enslaved people?

Quote: Evenbob

It's the only reliable source.

Around and around we go. Can you scientifically prove why this statement is true?

Quote:

I can't find anyplace else that talks about
sin like you do. This leads me to believe
this is just your take on it.

Well then just deal with my take on it, but trust me it is what Christianity teaches.

Quote: FrGamble

So you ignore the point of my question.

No I didn't. You thought we went to war
to save the Jews and we certainly did not.
That's like people think we had a Civil War
to free the slaves. It was the economy and
states rights versus federal rights, not
slavery that started it. Freeing the slaves
was the result, not the reason.

Quote: FrGamble

If we did know what the Germans were doing to the Jews would it be wrong to go to war with them?

Is any war ever right? It's hard to say if we would
have gone to war over it. Anti Jewish sentiment
was very high in the US in those days, we even
turned away a whole shipload of them escaping
Hitler. Trying to rescue them would be more the
thing to do, going to war would be a bit much.

When Pol Pot killed millions of his own people
in the 70's, we certainly didn't go to war with
them, we didn't even try and stop it.

So because god had a good reason to kill all
the first born males, it was OK?

Quote: Evenbob

So because god had a good reason to kill all
the first born males, it was OK?

Start around 2:05

Quote: petroglyph

I was looking for clarification that killing and eating were two different "offenses".

Of course they are.


The taboo on cannibalism goes back long way or many cultures, but it's not at all universal. One does wonder not whether, but how often our early ancestors resorted to it.

Interesting editorial at Slate:

http://www.slate.com/bigideas/what-do-we-know/essays-and-opinions/randal-rauser-opinion

The author makes one unwarranted assumption. Atheists are not fighting Christianity. They're fighting all religions.

He makes one factual error. The war is hot rather than cold, and religion is losing.

And he sneaks in a fake moral high ground. He mentions hospitality in a way which makes Christians seem inclusive and accepting. I do recognize some Christian denominations are inclusive and accepting, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Most will not include you or accept you unless you conform to their beliefs and practices. If I had a nickel for every Christian who's told a transgender person they need to "accept Jesus as your personal savior [note: I still can't make sense of that phrase] and repent about being transgender...." I'd be able to buy Europe's last extant absolute monarchy and turn it into a Renaissance Art museum.

What is inclusive or accepting about that? When they want someone you're not, rather than you?

Quote: Nareed

If I had a nickel for every Christian who's told a transgender person they need to "accept Jesus as your personal savior [note: I still can't make sense of that phrase] and repent about being transgender...."?

They'll take you, but very soon they'll
make it clear that you'll never be
accepted unless you change.

Yes, 'personal savior' makes no sense,
it's a meaningless phrase. That's why
it's never questioned.

Quote: FrGamble

So you ignore the point of my question. If we did know what the Germans were doing to the Jews would it be wrong to go to war with them? What if we gave them 10 warnings about what was going to happen to them if they continued to kill the innocent children of their enslaved people?

This is a great point, though I'm sure you'll regret making it.

What the Nazi's did was beyond horrendous. I'm a fan of military history, beginning with WWII. I'm no expert, but I've seen and read a bunch, specifically on Vietnam, the Pacific theatre, and the Nazi party. To call it "an atrocity" doesn't really convey the horrors that were committed.

Now, what do we think of Nazi's today? There's no Nazi in 2015 that's killed a million people. There's no Nazi today that is imprisoning entire cultures. Hell, they're not even doing it to thousands. You may have some segregationists, probably some dude who's killed a handful, but nowhere near what happened in Germany circa 1945. Yet still, the Nazi's are condemned. In 2015, there is not a shred of positivity or even indifference when you hear the word "Nazi". It's 100% negative. Even their sigul, the swastika, which was stolen and was really a symbol of peace and auspiciousness, is tainted beyond repair. It doesn't matter if a 2015 Nazi doesn't believe in killing, if he doesn't believe in war, if you identify as a Nazi, you are universally shunned.

I'm sure you agree. And here comes the zinger...

What the Nazi's did pales in comparison to what European Christians did in the Americas alone. Pales in comparison. We're not talking about single-digit-million dying. We're talking tens of millions, entire extinction of peoples, total loss of culture, and the theft of their entire homeland. How much is all of the Americas even worth in today's USD? Quadrillions? Quintillions? All stolen by Christian Europeans, who all believed it was the will of the Lord to take over and bring "light" to the "savages".

You can't pull that s#$% today, just as a Nazi can't round up all of NYC's Jews and cast them into the Hudson. But if a Nazi said "Hey, I don't want to hurt anyone. I just believe in separation of races, in superiority, and I'd like to live in a world like that", you tell him to GTFO of here with his nonsense. So when you say "Hey, I'm not the one who killed the aboriginal people. I just believe my way is best, that the way of the Lord is superior, and I'd like to live in a world like that", I see absolutely no difference. The Nazi's did good, too. Of course, you had to be the right race and in their club or life really sucked, but if you were in, things were pretty great. Sounds kinda familiar, if you ask me.

When I think Christian or Catholic, I don't think of a superior group that wages a convert or die campaign. But I know that at one time, that's exactly what it was. Everything you and we shun about militant Islam today is the way Catholicism once was. And when a group is so full of egregious mistakes over hundreds of years of history, as the group called Catholics is, you know what I see?

I see people. People who fuck up just like I do. People who are selfish just like I am. People who are beautiful just as I can be. People who do wonderful things which I also try to do. People who are so filled of love and light, people who are so filled with darkness and hate. Just like me. You have all the answers. You have a god in your corner. If that's the case, why are we exactly the same?