Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: Mosca

FrGamble is the exact same way, but opposite. He didn’t sit down and think about it. He knows it. He’s always known it. That is why he is so frustrated with you (and probably me, too). We’re asking for proof of God and he’s saying, “Can’t you see? God is everywhere!”

There’s no point to it. It’s better to figure out how we can work together than it is to fight. But, in this case I think the fighting is the point.

I think you are right Mosca.

I've given up trying to get Bob to know God, I can't do that for him anyway. I am probably just hurting the cause. What I still hold out some hope for is that he and others might at least see that asking for some mathematical proof of God's existence before you believe is not reasonable. Instead you may disagree or argue with the evidence that would lead one to believe but they are not fools or crazy for believing in God. I don't want to fight either, but what I think is crazy and foolish is to know for sure, as if you had some proof that God for sure does not exist. I know that probably only Bob would say such a ridiculous thing, but I find it very hypocritical to be attacked so often for a belief in God by people who have far less evidence supporting their belief that religion is wrong, a sham, and that there is no God.

There shouldn’t be a “cause” to fight for. The whole point is to forget about the cause and be a good person toward others.

Quote: Mosca

There shouldn’t be a “cause” to fight for. The whole point is to forget about the cause and be a good person toward others.

That's the whole point, be a good person towards others?
I think that is wildly understating what the point is. The point is to radically love others and to do good toward them that you would be willing to suffer and die for them. To give generously till it hurts, to ignore the fleeting pleasures of the world, to fight against injustice, to be someone who brings great joy to others and hope in their pain and is surrounded by folks that will do the same for you.

Quote: FrGamble

That's the whole point, be a good person towards others?
I think that is wildly understating what the point is. The point is to radically love others and to do good toward them that you would be willing to suffer and die for them. To give generously till it hurts, to ignore the fleeting pleasures of the world, to fight against injustice, to be someone who brings great joy to others and hope in their pain and is surrounded by folks that will do the same for you.

Then you must be fighting because you think it brings others great joy.

Quote: Mosca

Then you must be fighting because you think it brings others great joy.

I'm not fighting, I'm striving to be like Jesus. That is really the point. It's not just about being a good person or doing good toward others, it's about being like Christ the model, inspiration, and source of all Grace, goodness, and strength.

Quote: FrGamble

That's the whole point, be a good person towards others?
I think that is wildly understating what the point is. The point is to radically love others and to do good toward them that you would be willing to suffer and die for them. To give generously till it hurts, to ignore the fleeting pleasures of the world, to fight against injustice, to be someone who brings great joy to others and hope in their pain and is surrounded by folks that will do the same for you.

Although I know you didn’t mean it, this can be taken as an offhand insult. (To be clear, I don’t take it as one, but I could.) You of all people have to know that most of us live uneventful lives. Inside these lives, the most important thing we can do for others is to make their lives easier is grant them small kindnesses. Do the dishes, even when it isn’t your turn. Go get the coffee for the office. Tip extra because the waitress is obviously not having a good day. These are examples of the way you can help ordinary people get through ordinary days. I’m not going to get the opportunity to suffer and die for them, at least not that I can anticipate. But I can think of others before I think of myself. I can do it without considering how I benefit, I’ll do it because it’s what I do. If I radically loved others... if everyone radically loved others, then others would push us away, asking for some space to be alone, please!

People are going to be people. Make it easier for them to be people.

Quote: Mosca

Although I know you didn’t mean it, this can be taken as an offhand insult. (To be clear, I don’t take it as one, but I could.) You of all people have to know that most of us live uneventful lives. Inside these lives, the most important thing we can do for others is to make their lives easier is grant them small kindnesses. Do the dishes, even when it isn’t your turn. Go get the coffee for the office. Tip extra because the waitress is obviously not having a good day. These are examples of the way you can help ordinary people get through ordinary days. I’m not going to get the opportunity to suffer and die for them, at least not that I can anticipate. But I can think of others before I think of myself. I can do it without considering how I benefit, I’ll do it because it’s what I do. If I radically loved others... if everyone radically loved others, then others would push us away, asking for some space to be alone, please!

People are going to be people. Make it easier for them to be people.

Thank you for that Mosca. I think all the wonderful examples you mentioned are what I mean by radical love. I don't necessarily mean become a missionary or become a martyr. One of my favorite saints, St. Therese, who is a doctor of the Church, talked about "the little way". She was a yound religious sister and died young. She knew she couldn't do what the world considered "great" things so she dedicated doing little things with great love. Cleaning the dishes out of love for others is as great as anything when it is done with great love. Radically loving others is most often done in small things for the vast majority of us, including loving people enough to give them space. What I was reacting to is the thought that just being a good person is the point, keep doing the little things with great love and never doubt or worry that it is not enough. Thanks and God bless!

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not fighting, I'm striving to be like Jesus.

Really? And what did Jesus do,
exactly, that you want to emulate.
He traveled from town to town
for three years, with his little posse
of teenage boys, preaching doom
and gloom and the End Times for
his supper. He was a zealot beggar,
basically. He had no job, he talked
for a living.

Repent repent, the time of god is
near. The end will come soon, in
our time. That was his main message,
that he preached daily for three years.
These days people who do that,
even Xtians, are looked at as nutjobs.
Scaring ignorant uneducated people
in small villages so they would feed
and house him and his ragtag group
for a night, that's what you're emulating?
Jesus was all talk and very little action,
just like most religious zealots.

You do not know Jesus or His message.

Quote: FrGamble

You do not know Jesus or His message.

You said you 'strive to be like Jesus'.
I pointed out what Jesus was like
and how you're not that way at all.
What does his message of doom and
gloom that he preached daily for
three years, that the world would end
in his time, have to do with anything
now.

Again you have no idea who Jesus is or what He teaches.