Hey FrGamble!

Quote: FrGamble

If you can answer that let me know. It is the miracle and mystery of the Incarnation..

The answer is easy. It's the same
to ask how can Superman pick
up a Sherman tank when he has
the body mass of a human man.
Answer is, he has super powers.
The real answer is, in this universe
he could never do it, it's a made
up story.

How could Jesus be both fully
human and fully God? Church
answer, well, he just can. Real
answer, it's a myth, it's a made
up story to make a point.
Obviously.

Quote: SOOPOO

Good point. They explain it by stating God is not bound by the laws of nature like we are. He can do whatever he wants..

Lets go back to Superman again.
In a comic book, you can make
your hero do whatever you want,
you don't have to give a logical
explanation. And none is needed,
we understand totally what a
comic book is.

So you take an urban legend
story like the one of Jesus,
and it's totally understandable
as a legend/myth. As soon as
you try and make it real, you
run into a brick wall. As well
you should.

I think I'm getting a little of what FrG is saying. Jesus could feel pain, but the Holy spirit and God can't. Just seems so silly to be an all knowing, benevolent, all powerful God to go through such silly machinations... for what again? So people can suffer? You will never be able to convince me that if you believe your God is benevolent, that his actions are congruent with that thought. If you told me there was mean sunofabitch that was all powerful, but evil, he would allow babies to die, starvation to be prevalent, Alzheimer's to exist, etc.... that I'd say at least makes sense. Your story of all this goodness in God allowing untold suffering just doesn't cut it. And deep down inside, you know I'm right.

Maybe Jesus had a doppelganger?

So I am not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this, but as it seems to be the most active religious debate thread:

At my local city council meeting (via Zoom, not in person), the Council decided to invite a local pastor on to pray before the meeting, which I find as a waste of taxpayer money to begin with, but whatever, its the South its the norm still.

But, what was more interesting is what she said, I won't bore you with the whole prayer: ".... I pray that you make these leaders strong oh lord as you knew that this devastation was coming and now they need your power to overcome it...."

I wanted to be like "umm what" if God knew this was coming and did not stop it what would that say about God? And, if God did not care to stop it, why would he care to provide leadership guidance to random local officials?

I know that I was not the only one internally cringing as she said that. It goes to show that if there is a God (there almost certainly isn't), God is either unable or unwilling to stop devastation that he knew was coming (and by the same logic created in the first place)......


All of that being said overall I am very pleased with my City's response as they are following CDC guidance more strictly than our foolish governor, but I don't want to derail this thread with local politics so I will end there....

Quote: Gandler

I know that I was not the only one internally cringing as she said that. .

All prayers are cringe worthy. They're
always self serving and way more
about the person doing the praying
than asking god for anything.

Quote: Evenbob

All prayers are cringe worthy. They're
always self serving and way more
about the person doing the praying
than asking god for anything.

Yeah but most are just mumbo jumbo.

To specifically point out God knew (which means planned and approved) the devastation was coming just shows if there is a God he is either sadistic or does not have the power to stop nature (IE his own creation), either way if there were a God(s) (I doubt it) they would not be something worth worshiping.

Quote: Evenbob

All prayers are cringe worthy. They're
always self serving and way more
about the person doing the praying
than asking god for anything.

Bingo. At my ex synagogue, there would be a time where the rabbi was saying a prayer for those that are ill to get better, and he asks people from the audience to call out a name if the rabbi did not already. The clear purpose was so that the congregation saw that YOU cared about someone, not that it would do any good for the person whose name you called out.
I've done similar. When I had a friend who was religious, I'd ask him to pray for xxxxx. It would make my friend happy to do so. I believe a few years ago I asked FrG to pray for someone (in a PM). I knew the person would appreciate it.
It took little effort and made me feel good.

Bob..... Let's stop fighting..... this is an olive branch!

Quote: Evenbob

Ummm.. Really? In 70bc alone, 6000
were crucified along the Apian Way
in the time of Spartacus. Who died
in battle, unlike the movie. Historians
estimate Rome crucified 1000 a
year far at least 100 years. Sometimes
a couple hundred at once. Google
is your friend.

I have googled it and have not found a single historian that claims numbers as large as you are quoting. Again, obviously I believe it happened and happened a lot. It was the worst punishment the Romans could do, and they were good at killing people in painful and public ways. However, the archaeology just doesn't support such a claim. I'm sorry but the facts are against you, but again just to say that myself and every Christian I know support your notion that is was done a lot.

Quote:

All this 'knowing' Jesus was doing
on the cross. He was 'fully informed'
that he was god, divine. He had
'complete faith' in god, because he
was god. He knew perfectly well
why he had to die. He had this
huge amount of knowledge,
according to you and your church,
but it gave him no advantage as
he was dying? Of course it did!!

You are right, of course it did! Having the faith in confidence in His Heavenly Father enabled Jesus in His human will to abandon Himself to the plan of God for the salvation of the world. It allowed Him with complete trust lay down His life for you, me, and the whole world.

Quote:

There
was NO sacrifice because nothing
was given up on gods part.

This is where you lose me again. Are you saying that because Jesus' faith was so strong in God that He didn't really suffer or die? You have already agreed with me that He did not have the perfect knowledge of God the Father. So He had faith and trust in a promise. Do you believe that nullifies any sacrifice?

Quote:

What did god
lose in the myth? NOTHING!!!

You are really stuck on looking at it from an all-knowing God's perspective and not the perspective of Our Savior Jesus Christ. As I've mentioned I do think there was suffering and sacrifice for God the Father, but you have not given any reason why Christ in His humanity did not sacrifice everything for love of you and me and all people. If you stop seeing God as a monolith and instead see the person of Jesus Christ as true God and true man I think you will understand. However, since I know you don't believe Jesus is truly God I also understand that this may be impossible for you to grasp.

Quote:

I'll answer it this way. In Greek
mythology Sisyphus is sentenced
for eternity, for his deceitfulness,
to rolling a heavy boulder up
a hill only to have it roll down
again before he reaches the summit.
We totally understand the teaching
here, don't be deceitful. Why do
you think this never happened in
reality, that it's not a story about
a real event? Then apply that same
logic to your Jesus myth.

What if what you call a myth was a historical provable reality. What if in the story it clearly and purposefully points out that these are real events? Did the myth of
Sisyphus claim to be a real story? Look at the genre and the details and what the story itself teaches. You are trying to fit a round peg into a square hole and are upset that it won't fit.

Quote: Evenbob

So you think I'm not knowledgeable
and don't care to be? Really? I've
been talking to you almost daily
about your religion since 2014 and
you think I'm not knowledgeable.

Bob, I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings but I have been talking to you about my religion for a while and I know you are not knowledgeable about it. What is worse your statement that you first leveled against others was small and petty before I turned it on to you. I'm sorry but you not only don't know the religion, which by the way is perfectly okay, but the worst part is you rarely show an interest or care to learn. You are much more eager to insult me, my faith, and ignore anything that proves you have some learning to do.

On another note, there have been some recent posts where I do believe you have come to a better understanding of what I am trying to say concerning the two natures of Christ.