Hey FrGamble!

Another answer I've heard is "I'm not that knowledgeable about it", you'd have to ask my pastor, priest, etc. They don't know, so 'I' should go ask? I don't get why people claim to be this or that religion, yes some of them church hopping, without dissecting what the claims are? Just accepting some magic guy in the sky, with magic powers doesn't work [anymore] for me.

Quote: FrGamble

He did not have the complete knowledge of God the Father. I think we are coming to agreement and understanding on that.

Here's something we can agree on.
Over 100,000 people were nailed
on crosses by the Romans. Think
about that number. In a time
that part of the world wasn't
over populated. The majority
of them were runaway slaves
who were punished as examples
to other slaves.

What we can agree on is that
not one of those 100K miserable
dying people had the advantage
of 'full awareness' that they were
both god and man at the same
time like Jesus did. Sometimes
they ran out of wood and nailed
them to a tall wood fence.
Sometimes they nailed them
spreadeagled on barn roofs.

Not one of those poor people
had the huge advantage of the
'full awareness' of being divine
and whatever comfort that gave
Jesus. All thru the gospels Jesus
says all kinds of things that make
us aware in the myth that he
knows he's different from everybody
else. But when it comes to dying,
Xtians want us to kick all that aside
and believe Jesus was totally in
the dark about what was happening.

This is where the myth, if taken
literally, falls apart. Obviously Jesus
was a token sacrifice, because if
it was real he sacrificed nothing.
But token sacrifices always work
in myths because they're meant
to teach, not to be considered
real events. As a token sacrifice,
god saw what it was like to be
man, and learned from it. He
felt the pain and humiliation
of dying that way. As a myth, it's
a story that works. Like all myths
work.

Taught as reality, it has zero
credibility. Deep down Xtians
suspect this is true, but like
the Santa myth, best not to
question it too deeply when
you're 5 years old. The truth
will ruin your Xmas.

Quote: petroglyph

Another answer I've heard is "I'm not that knowledgeable about it", you'd have to ask my pastor, priest, etc. They don't know, so 'I' should go ask? I don't get why people claim to be this or that religion, yes some of them church hopping, without dissecting what the claims are? Just accepting some magic guy in the sky, with magic powers doesn't work [anymore] for me.

They don't care what the claims
are, all they know is they're saved
and don't have to worry about it.
They aren't knowledgeable and
don't care to be. Even if you ask
a pastor anything deep, he's most
likely to give you scripture to
read and tells you to pray about it.

They church hop because they get
bored with people in the congregation
and want a change. My wife is on
her 4th church in 20 years. She loves
loves loves them all for the first
year or so. The one she's at now
has her playing the piano every
Sunday. It's a mixed race Baptist
church and she luuuuuuuves it.
For now.

Quote: Evenbob

Here's something we can agree on.
Over 100,000 people were nailed
on crosses by the Romans.

Uhhhm...we can come close of this but the evidence for your number doesn't really add up. It was practiced and it was extreme in its punishment. It was torture and a political show of force on public display. It also was a lot of work so before I agree with your 100,000 number I would need to see from where you got that information. I'm thinking more in the line of 10,000.

Quote:

All thru the gospels Jesus
says all kinds of things that make
us aware in the myth that he
knows he's different from everybody
else. But when it comes to dying,
Xtians want us to kick all that aside
and believe Jesus was totally in
the dark about what was happening.

Gosh Bob, you have to be so careful about this. You seem to want to think in extremes and say things that are not at all what others are saying in order to try to make a point. It borders on creating straw men arguments if it is intentional. Let me say again that Jesus had complete faith and trust in God His Father, He knew God was asking Him to die for the salvation of the world. He was perfectly obedient to the Father and had an even greater faith than Abraham that trusting in God is the greatest thing and would lead to the greatest good. He believed that the suffering servant would be vindicated and that God's Glory and love would always triumph.

Quote:

god saw what it was like to be
man, and learned from it. He
felt the pain and humiliation
of dying that way.

Since it is not a myth and we are talking about a historical person who billions of people, part of the largest religion on earth, have come to know is truly God incarnate living and active in the world today it is extraordinary. Let the significance of what you just wrote about God experiencing pain, humiliating, and death sink in. Possibly you can re-examine if He suffered or sacrificed based on that.

If you believe the myth makes sense that He sacrificed, why don't you think that if it really happened that way it is not a sacrifice?

Quote: Evenbob

They aren't knowledgeable and
don't care to be.

"Hello Kettle, this is the pot."

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: aceofspades

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - I see what you are trying to say by referring us to Genesis 22
However, Abraham, unlike your claim about Jesus, was ONLY a human, he was not also God
Additionally, Abraham did as he was told out of FEAR

Abraham was a human with great faith, so was Jesus. Now Jesus of course was also God so His faith was even more perfect than Abraham who is our Father in Faith.

I don't think there was any fear motivating Abraham.

Why did Jesus need faith in God if he was also God??????

Because He was fully human and fully God. In His humanity he had perfect faith in God the Father. In this he models perfectly what we are called to have as well.

If fully = 100%, how could Jesus be both fully human and fully God?

Must be that new math

Quote: aceofspades

If fully = 100%, how could Jesus be both fully human and fully God?

Must be that new math

If you can answer that let me know. It is the miracle and mystery of the Incarnation. I know why it was necessary; because to save humanity one has to be human. But as to how?...

Quote: aceofspades

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: aceofspades

Quote: FrGamble

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - I see what you are trying to say by referring us to Genesis 22
However, Abraham, unlike your claim about Jesus, was ONLY a human, he was not also God
Additionally, Abraham did as he was told out of FEAR

Abraham was a human with great faith, so was Jesus. Now Jesus of course was also God so His faith was even more perfect than Abraham who is our Father in Faith.

I don't think there was any fear motivating Abraham.

Why did Jesus need faith in God if he was also God??????

Because He was fully human and fully God. In His humanity he had perfect faith in God the Father. In this he models perfectly what we are called to have as well.

If fully = 100%, how could Jesus be both fully human and fully God?

Must be that new math

Good point. They explain it by stating God is not bound by the laws of nature like we are. He can do whatever he wants. Blah, blah, blah.

Quote: FrGamble

Uhhhm...I'm thinking more in the line of 10,000.

Ummm.. Really? In 70bc alone, 6000
were crucified along the Apian Way
in the time of Spartacus. Who died
in battle, unlike the movie. Historians
estimate Rome crucified 1000 a
year far at least 100 years. Sometimes
a couple hundred at once. Google
is your friend.

Quote:

Let me say again that Jesus had complete faith and trust in God His Father, He knew God was asking Him to die for the salvation of the world. He was perfectly obedient to the Father and had an even greater faith than Abraham

All this 'knowing' Jesus was doing
on the cross. He was 'fully informed'
that he was god, divine. He had
'complete faith' in god, because he
was god. He knew perfectly well
why he had to die. He had this
huge amount of knowledge,
according to you and your church,
but it gave him no advantage as
he was dying? Of course it did!!
You can't have it both ways. There
was NO sacrifice because nothing
was given up on gods part. Jesus
rises from the dead in the myth, all
is well.
You want so much for there to be
a sacrifice, you blatantly ignore
what is obvious to everybody
outside your religion. Jesus was
a token 'sacrifice' in a myth, god
gave up nothing. When the details
of the religion were explained to
me, it's the first thing I looked at.
Where is this big sacrifice that's
the centerpiece. It's exactly like
Bill Gates sacrificing a billion
dollars to charity. Who cares, he
has billions left. What did god
lose in the myth? NOTHING!!!

Quote:

If you believe the myth makes
sense that He sacrificed, why don't
you think that if it really happened
that way

I'll answer it this way. In Greek
mythology Sisyphus is sentenced
for eternity, for his deceitfulness,
to rolling a heavy boulder up
a hill only to have it roll down
again before he reaches the summit.
We totally understand the teaching
here, don't be deceitful. Why do
you think this never happened in
reality, that it's not a story about
a real event? Then apply that same
logic to your Jesus myth.

And don't say, well, it's a fact Jesus
was a real man and really crucified.
So were over 100k other people,
so what. The details about Jesus
being god are made up urban
legends to prove a point. Just
like every other myth.

Quote: FrGamble

"Hello Kettle, this is the pot."

So you think I'm not knowledgeable
and don't care to be? Really? I've
been talking to you almost daily
about your religion since 2014 and
you think I'm not knowledgeable.
Wow, that says way more about you
than it does me. What a small, petty
thing to say.