Hey FrGamble!

Quote: Mosca

It’s nonsense to me. Gobbledygook, if you want me to use your word. And, that’s what Christianity sounds like to me. How can it be more true than Scientology? Or JCLDS?

I’m glad it works for many others. The world is a big place.

Okay, that it sounds like that to you and that you for some reason can't see the difference between it and other "religions" like scientology is different than calling it nonsensical. You personally don't like it, I get that.

Quote: FrGamble

Okay, that it sounds like that to you and that you for some reason can't see the difference between it and other "religions" like scientology is different than calling it nonsensical. You personally don't like it, I get that.

I like everything about it but the god part.

Quote: FrGamble

I am saying that the man who forgos the parachute believes he is going to a better place. Jesus believes as well that doing God's Will to save the world means that death and sin will be defeated. Does having that belief make their sacrifice null and void?

[edit] Just to be clear the man who forgos the parachute and Jesus undergoing His passion and death are both done for others but they also believe they are going to a better place. Does that mean their doing it for others doesn't really count and that they didn't sacrifice anything?

To me, yes..... leaving a 'worse place' for a 'better place', is NOT a sacrifice. Isn't that simple enough to understand?

Quote: FrGamble

All I keep hearing is, this doesn't make sense or it is confusing. I really wish you all might tell me why you say such things? I get that this can be confusing or complicated. However nobody has explained why it doesn't make sense or isn't logical.

I also understand that it might be hard to see your objections, but no body has said any that are valid. Bob has mentioned that he thought Jesus because He knew He was divine shared completely in the knowledge of God. I think he has understood now that Jesus in His humanity was not omniscient because being fully human our intellect is limited. Nobody has mentioned the example of Abraham in Genesis 22 or answered my question about if I became a martyr having complete faith I would go to Heaven, does that mean I never sacrificed anything? You can't just say something is ridiculous because you don't like the answer. For example when I pointed out the ridiculousness of atheism nobody had any response, just more mean comments followed by a change in subject. Let's honestly think about these things if you really want to know about them. If you have already made up your minds and resort to childish thinking of a 10 year old then be honest about it.

Padre - I see what you are trying to say by referring us to Genesis 22
However, Abraham, unlike your claim about Jesus, was ONLY a human, he was not also God
Additionally, Abraham did as he was told out of FEAR

Quote: SOOPOO

To me, yes..... leaving a 'worse place' for a 'better place', is NOT a sacrifice. Isn't that simple enough to understand?

I think I do understand you perspective. A couple of things I maybe don't understand is why does the motivation have to be devoid of a sense of hope? Do you mean that sacrifice requires you to think that there is no value in it other than saving the other person? I wonder what that does to a sense of wanting to sacrifice? Would it be considered a sacrifice for someone to be thrown out of the plane randomly so that there are enough parachutes? Would that person that is thrown out be committing a sacrificial act, they would certainly be a sacrifice? I'm not trying to say you are wrong just trying to clarify your view, which is very different than my own.

Quote: FrGamble

Jesus trusted in God and His plan. Jesus knew the prophecies in the Old Testament. .

So your Church claims Jesus was
'fully aware' he was god before
he was baptized. He was fully
aware of his duel nature as
both man and god. And all
'fully aware' meant was he
trusted god and his plan?
That can't be right, that's
ridiculous. Lots of Jews at the
time trusted gods plan.

Let me ask it AGAIN. When
Jesus was nailed to the cross,
being 'fully aware' he was
god (divine), what did that
full awareness mean to him.
What was in his mind at the
time, when he's 'fully aware'
of his divine nature?

Just to clarify. The definition
of 'fully aware' is:

having full knowledge; conscious; cognizant, informed;

According to your church, Jesus had
full knowledge of, was conscious of,
was cognizant of, the fact he was
both god and man on the day he
was executed.

If this was true, and you and your
Church and the NT say it is, there
cannot possibly, under these
circumstances, have been any
kind of sacrifice. Unless you can
somehow change the meaning
of informed, cognizant and conscious.
In the myth Jesus died 'fully aware'
that he was god. You can't have
it both ways so it fits your story.
You can't have Jesus both clueless
and clued-in at the same time.

That's where all the confusion from
non believers comes from. Why
it all sounds like gobblygook
to us. You want us to believe
something that sounds totally
ridiculous. That Jesus knew
knew he was god but really knew
nothing at all. That's how crazy
people think.

Quote: FrGamble

I think I do understand you perspective. A couple of things I maybe don't understand is why does the motivation have to be devoid of a sense of hope? Do you mean that sacrifice requires you to think that there is no value in it other than saving the other person? I wonder what that does to a sense of wanting to sacrifice? Would it be considered a sacrifice for someone to be thrown out of the plane randomly so that there are enough parachutes? Would that person that is thrown out be committing a sacrificial act, they would certainly be a sacrifice? I'm not trying to say you are wrong just trying to clarify your view, which is very different than my own.

I've tried hard to figure out what you are asking me, but I can't. My point is simple...... to call something a 'sacrifice', I feel you have to be giving up something of value to you. The person committing suicide because they believe they are going to the 'better place' is not giving up anything of value, at least in his mind. That person is doing the opposite of sacrifice; he is 'upgrading' his existence, EVEN if he is aware that he will be hurting his loved ones. My 'plane' example was just a choice of a means to commit suicide, and somehow you morphed it into choices of who should die.

I think I've asked you this before, without an answer, but I'll try again.

A few months back, I attended a funeral of a friend's wife. She died suddenly and tragically at age 49. At the funeral, there wasn't a single speaker who didn't say something like "in a better place" or "now at peace with her mother and father" or "until sometime far off in the future when her family joins her". If these things are true, why was everyone crying the entire time? If you truly believe she is now with God, isn't that a good thing?

Quote: SOOPOO

At the funeral, there wasn't a single speaker who didn't say something like "in a better place" or "now at peace with her mother and father" or "until sometime far off in the future when her family joins her". If these things are true, why was everyone crying the entire time? If you truly believe she is now with God, isn't that a good thing?

Xtians are absolutely baffling when
it comes to this. They constantly
talk about gods plan for them, how
great it will be in heaven. How god
has saved them from hell and the
'better place' they will go to.

10 years ago a 23 year old member
of my wife's family was killed by a
drunk driver. This devastated her
all Xtian family. They acted like the
worst thing possible had just happened.
I asked my wife why were they upset,
isn't her dying part of gods plan for
her? Shouldn't they be rejoicing that
she's in a 'better place' with Jesus?

My wife didn't speak to me for 2 months,
a blessing in and of itself. Xtians talk
in riddles and confusion, they will drive
you batshit crazy if you hang around
with them long enough. They have
no idea what their own religion is about,
can't explain it with any logic or reason,
and resent you if you ask them to. They
just assume everybody but them understands
it so they don't worry about it. Like having
dinner with six friends and everybody assumes
anybody but them is picking up the check.
A big surprise is coming.

Most Xtians will deflect any question you ask
off to somebody else. And that person
will do the same. When you find somebody
willing to answer, you won't be able to make
sense out of the answer because the person
explaining doesn't understand it himself. Like
FrG does here. To him his answers are coherent
and totally comprehensible. He thinks the fault
for not understanding lies with us. He doesn't
realize his religion makes no logical sense and
cannot be explained rationally. That's how it
got so big, everybody assumed everybody
else but them understood it. So they just
go along for the ride.

Quote: Mosca

I like everything about it but the god part.

That is a pretty big part!?! Check out C.S. Lewis' "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" argument.

Quote: aceofspades

Padre - I see what you are trying to say by referring us to Genesis 22
However, Abraham, unlike your claim about Jesus, was ONLY a human, he was not also God
Additionally, Abraham did as he was told out of FEAR

Abraham was a human with great faith, so was Jesus. Now Jesus of course was also God so His faith was even more perfect than Abraham who is our Father in Faith.

I don't think there was any fear motivating Abraham.