Hey FrGamble!

Gandler in the midst of his post makes a good point. Reading the Bible or the Koran or even a Science textbook without some help to understand it is foolish and will leave you frustrated and confused. We are talking about events from long ago and from a different culture. There is different types of writing and styles that obviously folks like SOOPOO and Evenbob just don't seem to grasp even when the writers themselves make it obvious. I always marvel at agnostics who say the Bible made them so. They read it without even the desire to understand or learn from it. They have no way to make the connections about what certain prophecies and stories are referencing or alluding to. It's like saying I don't look at the stars because I read an astronomy book that didn't make any sense to me.

By the way why would anyone become an atheist after reading some sacred text? Maybe you didn't like the Koran, or in actuality didn't understand it and didn't seek out any help to understand it, putting aside the fact that you didn't actually try - then don't be a Muslim. However, why would not understanding a complicated Sacred text lead you into not believing there is a God? That is just crazy talk.

I understand that if Jesus knew the plan, and had faith in the plan he would rise from the dead in 3 days I understand that there was absolutely no sacrifice. Giving something up knowing you're going to get it back, is not a sacrifice.

It's like my ex priest friend said. The sacrifice is supposed to be a mystery. You aren't supposed to be able to explain it. You're just supposed to take for granted that it happened.

You can't explain it because it's meant to be symbolic. It's not supposed to be taken as an event that really happened. It's a story it's a myth that is supposed to teach something. If you take it as a real event it loses all of its meaning.

You will never see it that way or if you do, you will never admit it. Because you've taken on a career selling the story as a real event. The major requirement that it takes to be a Christian is you have to constantly suspend your disbelief. Why would anybody willingly do that unless they were so indoctrinated as a child they don't even know they're doing it.

Quote: FrGamble

Gandler in the midst of his post makes a good point. Reading the Bible or the Koran or even a Science textbook without some help to understand it is foolish and will leave you frustrated and confused. We are talking about events from long ago and from a different culture. There is different types of writing and styles that obviously folks like SOOPOO and Evenbob just don't seem to grasp even when the writers themselves make it obvious. I always marvel at agnostics who say the Bible made them so. They read it without even the desire to understand or learn from it. They have no way to make the connections about what certain prophecies and stories are referencing or alluding to. It's like saying I don't look at the stars because I read an astronomy book that didn't make any sense to me.

By the way why would anyone become an atheist after reading some sacred text? Maybe you didn't like the Koran, or in actuality didn't understand it and didn't seek out any help to understand it, putting aside the fact that you didn't actually try - then don't be a Muslim. However, why would not understanding a complicated Sacred text lead you into not believing there is a God? That is just crazy talk.

Because after reading the book of God, I found it unconvincing, and I have never seen evidence or even anecdotal experiences to make me beleive that there may be truth in it.

I would happily accept any evidence for a God that is presented to me. As I have demonstrated on here (I hope) I am open to having my mind changed.

But, the books promote barbarism, and certainly do not give any concrete explanation for God on either side (Islam or Christianity, both of which are by their own books, incompatible with each other...)

I have also read the book of Mormon, but I don't think I need to waste much time showing how silly that is (not to mention the long history of Joseph Smith being a con artist....)

I have never read Diantontics (Scientology), and I don't need to, just on the face of it Scientology is manipulative and abusive. And, it was founded by a science fiction writer with some dubious morals (which may actually mean the books are entertaining reads, but I doubt that they contain wisdom or spiratural truths)....

Quote: SOOPOO

Yowza! So I want to get this straight. You are admitting in the Bible there are "fictional accounts"! I know Ace asked already, but how is one supposed to figure out which are "historical" and which are "fictional accounts'???????

I think it was also you that posted something like only about 30% of xtians read the bible cover to cover?

I was glad to see that whoever posted it. I couldn't get clear through it. Only made it a few "books" into it. To someone who wasn't raised around religion, the hypocrisy of the church not just telling people which books of the bible are supposed to be real and which are not, just killed it for me.

Then here I read, frg sometimes refers to the story's in the bible as parables and teaching tools, sometimes real sometimes not. It's sad, but I can see how being honest upfront wouldn't pay well for the church.

Quote: petroglyph

I think it was also you that posted something like only about 30% of xtians read the bible cover to cover?

I was glad to see that whoever posted it. I couldn't get clear through it. Only made it a few "books" into it. To someone who wasn't raised around religion, the hypocrisy of the church not just telling people which books of the bible are supposed to be real and which are not, just killed it for me.

Then here I read, frg sometimes refers to the story's in the bible as parables and teaching tools, sometimes real sometimes not. It's sad, but I can see how being honest upfront wouldn't pay well for the church.

Whoa there Petro, calm down. A couple of things: the Bible is not meant to be read straight through from cover to cover, that might be your problem. By the time you get to numbers you might not be interested in chapters about how many cubits to build this or that. I would suggest reading the Gospels. If you only got a few books in that means you never got to the New Testament. Secondly, if your Bible doesn't have an introduction to each book of the Bible or a general introduction explaining what genre it is written in and the history and meaning behind it - get a new Bible. You guys are like Yowza! and all scandalized like it is some secret. Again any Bible worth its salt will explain these things to you. What other ancient near-east text would you try to read without reading an introduction or some history or trying to understand the context and its purpose for writing. I am amazed as adults you lived so long thinking that the Bible was one long narrative or history. We preach this, we talk about it in Bible Studies, there is no dishonesty going on. If you are really interested in understanding the Sacred Scriptures of any religion you probably should ask somebody to help you or at least read the introduction to the various books. Yowza!

Quote: Gandler

Because after reading the book of God, I found it unconvincing, and I have never seen evidence or even anecdotal experiences to make me beleive that there may be truth in it.

I would happily accept any evidence for a God that is presented to me. As I have demonstrated on here (I hope) I am open to having my mind changed.

But, the books promote barbarism, and certainly do not give any concrete explanation for God on either side (Islam or Christianity, both of which are by their own books, incompatible with each other...)

I have also read the book of Mormon, but I don't think I need to waste much time showing how silly that is (not to mention the long history of Joseph Smith being a con artist....)

I have never read Diantontics (Scientology), and I don't need to, just on the face of it Scientology is manipulative and abusive. And, it was founded by a science fiction writer with some dubious morals (which may actually mean the books are entertaining reads, but I doubt that they contain wisdom or spiratural truths)....

Gandler you again show some common sense in how you understand things like the Book of Mormon and you are wise to not read Diantontics. However, you seem to be moving too quickly with Sacred texts that have so shaped the thoughts and ideas of human society. Do you think that maybe a quick read of something so important and a quick judgement that it is unconvincing is enough. Understanding it especially the Old Testament is not always easy. Did you read the Gospels? Did you read a commentary or something to help you? Did you talk to someone about your concerns? These are things we would normally do if you were reading something that so many people value and that has shaped our society and culture in such profound ways. I'm glad you have an open mind. The next steps would seem to take actions that demonstrate your openness.

Quote: FrGamble

Whoa there Petro, calm down. A couple of things: the Bible is not meant to be read straight through from cover to cover, that might be your problem. By the time you get to numbers you might not be interested in chapters about how many cubits to build this or that. I would suggest reading the Gospels. If you only got a few books in that means you never got to the New Testament. Secondly, if your Bible doesn't have an introduction to each book of the Bible or a general introduction explaining what genre it is written in and the history and meaning behind it - get a new Bible. You guys are like Yowza! and all scandalized like it is some secret. Again any Bible worth its salt will explain these things to you. What other ancient near-east text would you try to read without reading an introduction or some history or trying to understand the context and its purpose for writing. I am amazed as adults you lived so long thinking that the Bible was one long narrative or history. We preach this, we talk about it in Bible Studies, there is no dishonesty going on. If you are really interested in understanding the Sacred Scriptures of any religion you probably should ask somebody to help you or at least read the introduction to the various books. Yowza!

FrG.... I can assure you my religious upbringing included attending a Conservative Jewish Synagogue, and going to the after school "religious school" at that synagogue. I have a few distinct memories, and one was asking my teacher about the Bible (Old Testament). We were told it is fact: not an allegory. (And we were also told that the New Testament was fiction, by the way). It was interesting watching a teacher try and explain to us how the earth was less than 6000 years old given the real scientific knowledge available of it being a tad older. Even as youngsters the incongruities were obvious.

Quote: Evenbob

I understand that if Jesus knew the plan, and had faith in the plan he would rise from the dead in 3 days I understand that there was absolutely no sacrifice. Giving something up knowing you're going to get it back, is not a sacrifice.

In earlier posts where you have shown understanding about this issue you correctly use the word faith to describe what Jesus in His human intellect understood. Here you seem to backsliding into thinking that Jesus knew with the certainty of omniscience. I think you know that is not true but it doesn't fit your narrative. Again to use your example of a soldier. The soldier has faith and trust in his general and charges the hill. He doesn't know how it will turn out, other than he will die, but his faith in His general and love of his fellow soldiers motivates him. That is surely a sacrifice of the highest order.

Quote: FrGamble

In earlier posts where you have shown understanding about this issue you correctly use the word faith to describe what Jesus in His human intellect understood. Here you seem to backsliding into thinking that Jesus knew with the certainty of omniscience. I think you know that is not true but it doesn't fit your narrative. Again to use your example of a soldier. The soldier has faith and trust in his general and charges the hill. He doesn't know how it will turn out, other than he will die, but his faith in His general and love of his fellow soldiers motivates him. That is surely a sacrifice of the highest order.

Help me out here, FrG. Are you saying while being nailed to the cross Jesus was not CERTAIN that he would live forever in heaven, but YOU are CERTAIN that you will?

Two specific questions....

1. Was Jesus certain he was going to live forever in Heaven?
2. Are you certain you will live forever in heaven?

Quote: SOOPOO

Help me out here, FrG. Are you saying while being nailed to the cross Jesus was not CERTAIN that he would live forever in heaven, but YOU are CERTAIN that you will?

Two specific questions....

1. Was Jesus certain he was going to live forever in Heaven?
2. Are you certain you will live forever in heaven?

1) Jesus had a certain and unshakable faith in the love of His Heavenly Father and the prophecies of the Old Testament.
2) I have a certain, but not quite as unshakable faith, in the love of God and the promises of the New Testament.