Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

There is zero evidence for the existence of anything remotely like the "supernatural." IT's not even a hypothesis, but an empty claim. When applied to religion it's not more valid than it is when applied to numerology.

Obviously for anything natural to exist there must be something supernatural. It is just the simple logic of the impossibility of a real infinite or that something contingent eventually must have a non-contingent cause. You continuing to ignore this or pretend it doesn't exist is strange and smacks of avoidance.

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Translation: do as I say, because you can't prove my cockamamie notions are not true.

Translation: you are not reading what I am saying and do not want to really engage in conversation. What I am saying is let us feel free to discuss any of your cockamamie notions about different gods or the absence of gods, but lets first acknowledge the scientific and historical evidence and what conclusions can be reached from them. (n.b. atheism is not possible to be reached from any scientific or historical evidence because it is illogical and does not follow from any reasonable argument)

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Before?

No, not before him, but before he had his vision of the cross how did Christianity grow so quickly and under such persecution thrive?

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If an all-powerful god cannot possibly do something unmistakable and impossible to ignore, then what use is it?

God is never going to force Himself upon you. He invites you in love. He respects and honors you too much to force you or impel you to anything.

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If you want to use any coincidence, occurrence, or such as "proof" of "God," then all bets are off, as you pointed out above. There's no standard, no measure and no limits. Hell, maybe the guy who lounges by the 7-11 downstairs is Jesus; for all I know he may even be named "Jesús," as that's a very common name in these parts.

Maybe you should pay attention to him or talk to him. Treat him like a human person, he probably doesn't get that very often. God is constantly speaking to us through what looks like to us coincidence.

Quote: Nareed

What the esteemed father is doing here is projecting his assumptions about belief on everyone else.

What I am doing is pointing out how we all come to belief in certain things, whether it is God or anything else.

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To begin with he starts off with a conclusion, then looks for evidence to support it. When he fails to find any, he must do away with evidence, or must perforce misinterpret, twist and mangle the evidence beyond recognition. This is exactly how pseudoscience and related fields work. It's the only way they can work, because there is no evidence for any of them.

We all begin with preconceived notions that are given to us from parents or schooling or by living in the world. These are not conclusions but they are ideas that need to be supported if they are to become important beliefs for us. We then look for evidence objectively that supports or denies our ideas. It is VERY important to be objective and not try to force evidence to fit into your beliefs or ideas but rather to listen or observe them without bias.

There is NO evidence that denies the existence of God. There is lots of evidence that works with and is not contradicted by a belief in God. This is supporting evidence that does not prove God's existence but can logically and reasonably support a belief in God.

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And of course he thinks because that's how he believes, it must also be how atheists reach their beliefs as well....

I don't know how other atheists came to their beliefs. I know I didn't come to mine because I had a strong desire not to believe in Jehovah. To spare you a long story, it was a combination of the glaring contradictions found in the Bible, plus the complete, total and utter lack of evidence, plus never having felt any need for whatever the hell it is religion has to offer, plus the crushing boredom inherent in religious services, plus the complete and total lack of any rational content in 99% of prayers.

So you did pretty much exactly what I listed above and what we all do in coming to our beliefs. You began to form some notions that God might not exist and you had evidence such as contradictions in the Bible, a lack of evidence, a lack of value to the belief, and bad services and prayers. From this evidence you strengthened and formed your belief that there is no God.

This also shows that we can be influenced by bad or poor evidence. All of your evidence is personally biased through either a lack of real considerations of Biblical hermeneutics that regularly account for such contradictions or just a bad experiences or lack of reasoned look at the issues. You are entitled to do this of course but you'll forgive us if none of your personal evidence is anything that I could take seriously or that could be applied to anyone else's journey of faith. I think it also contradicts your earlier claim that your heart did not play into your decision to reject belief in God.

Quote: rxwine

You don't need a witch to demonstrate power in a lab or on demand. We allow them the same courtesy as he gives his own supernatural beings. To be indifferent to demands for proof by demonstration.

And we can even allow that FrGamble has his own logic in requiring someone to prove a negative. No matter how many times a woman might deny being a witch she still has to prove she is not a witch to FrGambe because he works on assumptions of proving something cannot be as well as positive type proof.

As a lover of Monty Python and in particular that sketch you reference concerning witches I would very much disagree with you. They make fun, rightly, of those who fail to provide evidence that even remotely supports their claim. No claim can be taken seriously if either there is no evidence that supports it or if other evidence can be provided that contradicts it.

"Who are you so wise in the ways of science?"

Quote: FrGamble

Obviously for anything natural to exist there must be something supernatural.

<roll-eyes>

That's the worst corruption on the mistaken "evil is necessary for good to exist" argument.

Must something subnatural exist as well? How about cisnatural?

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It is just the simple logic of the impossibility of a real infinite or that something contingent eventually must have a non-contingent cause. You continuing to ignore this or pretend it doesn't exist is strange and smacks of avoidance.

When you can prove the universe hasn't always existed in some form, I'll buy your pretense that we can conclude the one true god Tefnut and Shu created the one true god Geb and Nut, while Aten-Ra stood on the pillars of Ma'at and Magic.

See, ignoring your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the evidence is not the same thing as ignoring the evidence.

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Translation: you are not reading what I am saying

"I read at a 78th grade level" ;)

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No, not before him, but before he had his vision of the cross how did Christianity grow so quickly and under such persecution thrive?

Did you not read my exposition on the slow growth of monotheism in Rome since the Second Century CE? Combine cultural trends with an opportunistic opportunist, and increasing revulsion against religious persecution under the tetrarchy, and if you're surprised by the result, then you're easily surprised.

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God is never going to force Himself upon you. He invites you in love. He respects and honors you too much to force you or impel you to anything.

That's a tired old spin on the lack of evidence.

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Treat him like a human person, he probably doesn't get that very often.

So, when did you stop kicking puppies in the street?

Quote: Nareed

When you can prove the universe hasn't always existed in some form, I'll buy your pretense that we can conclude the one true god Tefnut and Shu created the one true god Geb and Nut, while Aten-Ra stood on the pillars of Ma'at and Magic.

See, ignoring your misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the evidence is not the same thing as ignoring the evidence.

You are ignoring something, that is for sure. By you suggesting there is a possibility of a universe that has always existed you are ignoring the logically impossibility of an infinite regress of contingent things like matter and energy.

Quote: FrGamble

You are ignoring something, that is for sure. By you suggesting there is a possibility of a universe that has always existed you are ignoring the logically impossibility of an infinite regress of contingent things like matter and energy.

The universe is as it is, not as you'd like it to be. The Earth is not at its center, the sun does not revolve about the Earth, the sun's light isn't "pure," and heavenly bodies are made of exactly the same substance as the Earth.

Now, if a god can exist without infinite regress, etc., then so can the universe.

This is so, regardless of what your beliefs about the matter are, or what your heart tells you in between beats.

All these things must exist argument because their opposites exists -- well then suppose the Universe has to exist and nothingness has to exist because neither can exist without the other.

You don't need a god, you just need the opposite of something which is nothing.

Quote: FrGamble

It is VERY important to be objective and not try to force evidence to fit into your beliefs or ideas but rather to listen or observe them without bias.

You remind me of Alice "I give myself some good advice, but I very seldom follow it."

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There is NO evidence that denies the existence of God.

There is no evidence that denies the existence of unicorns, or Big Foot, or for that matter astrology. What's your point?

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There is lots of evidence that works with and is not contradicted by a belief in God.

And a lot that isn't contradicted by a belief in unicorns. And so?

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This is supporting evidence that does not prove God's existence but can logically and reasonably support a belief in God.

Let me illustrate your complex syllogism in translation:

All men are mortal
Socrates is a man
Therefore Socrates is a unicorn.

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So you did pretty much exactly what I listed above and what we all do in coming to our beliefs.

No, I didn't.

See, if I had doubts about the validity of evolution, or supernovas, or dark matter, or any of literally millions of other subjects, I could simply look at the evidence and make an informed judgment for myself. No biologist, astronomer or physicist ever told me "Can you prove evolution/dark matter/quantum effects are not real?"

But any doubts about religion elicited exactly nothing. Not very little, not very vague and scant evidence. Nothing. Zero. NO evidence at all. None.

Quote: FrGamble

I think it also contradicts your earlier claim that your heart did not play into your decision to reject belief in God.

I will admit my heart didn't stop beating even once while all this was going on.

Quote: FrGamble

Obviously for anything natural to exist there must be something supernatural.

Whoa there hoss, back up about a
hundred feet. Say what? Where did
you get that from? You love to pull
these gems out of nowhere, state
them like fact, and move on.

There is nothing 'obvious' about this
conclusion at all. It's right up there
with "I obviously see a creation, so
there is obviously a creator'. Case
closed. It's not closed at at all. These
are all just your opinions, quit stating
them as facts.

You obviously have no idea what the
word 'natural' really means. You insert
it into places where it has no business
being. You cannot separate natural from
unnatural or supernatural, those are just
concepts that don't exist in nature. Like
god, they are just ideas with no substance.