Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Then you don't understand the scientific revolution at all!

<roll-eyes>

Quote:

Please tell me how science saw, sensed, detected, and measured the philosophical claim that anything that cannot be seen, sensed, detected, measured, etc. is outside the realm of reality?

By being able to successfully explain, manipulate and describe such things as could be sensed and measured. And this includes natural explanations for much of what was thought to be of supernatural origin.

Or do you think the noxious fumes coming off caves near volcanic activity indicate an open portal to Hell?

Quote:

Maybe you could ask yourself the famous philosophical question, "If a tree falls in the middle of the forest and no one is there to see, sense, detect, measure, or observe it - does it make a sound?"

Of course it makes a sound.

Now, if a tree falls in the forest and there's no woman around to see it, does a man still get blamed for it? That's a better question.

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Or you could ask yourself about that same tree, "Can you be 100% certain that some force acted upon that tree to make it fall?"

Gravity.

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I think you could replace the words 'dark matter' with God and say the same thing.

I don't think so. The measurements of the rotational speeds of galaxies are very precise, and the estimates of observable mass are fairly precise.

Given everything we know about gravity, all the galaxies in the universe should have torn themselves apart by now. Unless 1) there is an as yet undetected source of mass within the galaxies or 2) there are aspects of gravity we don't know about yet.

I won't tell you I understand all the evidence that has physicists convinced that undetected mass must be responsible, but I've seen them. Also, every physicist acknowledges the possibility that there may be unknown aspects or properties of gravity or the universe we're not aware of yet.

At this point, if it isn't dark matter, or not only dark matter, then the answer must be a really basic, fundamental aspect of the universe. Theories about gravity in large scales have not panned out.

I've never seen any convincing evidence that anyone has detected the effects of Jehovah. Every such claim can be explained or dismissed by other means.

Quote: FrGamble

it is undeniable that God exists based on the evidence and logical arguments, .

We started this discussion 2 years ago
talking about circular thinking. Now we're
on a merry go round, you just say the
same things over and over and over
like they have some kind of impact.
You have never even come close to
showing any evidence for a god, or
any logical arguments that work. It
looks like you have shot your proverbial
wad, your gun is firing blanks now. Do
you see a single reason this conversation
should continue? Obviously you have
nothing of substance to add, all you do
is repeat yourself, forcing us to do the
same.

Quote: Evenbob

You have never even come close to
showing any evidence for a god, or
any logical arguments that work.

Whereas you and everyone else have done their part.

Asked for evidence of no God, we have provided no evidence of God. Here is it is, no evidence. Nothing in my hand; nothing up my sleeve. No god, every time. What more could he want?

Quote: rxwine

Here is it is, no evidence. Nothing in my hand; nothing up my sleeve. No god, every time. What more could he want?

He wants his reality validated, all god
believers do. I read the other day that
in all believers lies a sleeping atheist.
They want to believe there's a god, they
swear there is, but in their hearts there
is always doubts that they will never
admit to. When a cult gets a new convert,
they rejoice. Not for the new member, but
that he verifies that god is real, if only a
little. Why else would he convert if not by
the influence of god, or so they like to think.

Quote: Evenbob

Doyou see a single reason this conversation
should continue?

It has been a lot of companionship for me. And it's the most exposure I ever had to religion.

Voltaire said it so long ago and it is truer now than ever ("If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him")

Quote: rxwine

Whereas you and everyone else have done their part.

Asked for evidence of no God, we have provided no evidence of God. Here is it is, no evidence. Nothing in my hand; nothing up my sleeve. No god, every time. What more could he want?

Wait, no evidence is evidence of non-existence? So I've been providing evidence such as the logical necessity of a spiritual, all-powerful, non-contingent, eternal being to avoid a infinite regress and to ground the fact that something cannot come from nothing nor can things move without something acting upon them - all for nothing? Pointing out that the modern cosmological discoveries as well as the very laws of science point to the universe having a beginning was a waste? Showing the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth as the central person in all of human history and debunking the lame explanations trying to say the Resurrection didn't happen was a waste of time? Pointing out that the New Testament is the far and away the most bibliographically attested ancient text we have and that there is no reason to reasonably doubt its authenticity, this wasn't important? Pointing out miracles that are unexplainable outside of the acknowledgement of the supernatural fell on deaf ears? Recognizing that human beings are believing beings who long for meaning and purpose and that we implicitly and instinctively rightly reject the notion that we have no freedom, that there is no objective good or evil, that truth is relative, and that we and all around us is one big meaningless cosmic accident - none of that counts as evidence either? What about the personal experience of the divine that over 99% of all human beings, be them Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. throughout history have had, is that all just useless hearsay and wishful thinking? Boy oh boy, things would have been a lot easier if I could make a crazy claim like atheists do and then provide not a single shred of evidence and not a single coherent logical argument to support it and call it true.

Quote: Evenbob

He wants his reality validated, all god
believers do. I read the other day that
in all believers lies a sleeping atheist.
They want to believe there's a god, they
swear there is, but in their hearts there
is always doubts that they will never
admit to. When a cult gets a new convert,
they rejoice. Not for the new member, but
that he verifies that god is real, if only a
little. Why else would he convert if not by
the influence of god, or so they like to think.

You asked earlier if I thought this conversation was going anywhere and if it was valuable. It has been valuable and helpful to me and I hope others. However, I hate to say it but I have seriously begun to doubt if it truly is valuable to have any conversation or discussion with you.

Quote: FrGamble

Wait, no evidence is evidence of non-existence? So I've been providing evidence such as the logical necessity of a spiritual, all-powerful, non-contingent, eternal being to avoid a infinite regress and to ground the fact that something cannot come from nothing nor can things move without something acting upon them - all for nothing? Pointing out that the modern cosmological discoveries as well as the very laws of science point to the universe having a beginning was a waste? Showing the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth as the central person in all of human history and debunking the lame explanations trying to say the Resurrection didn't happen was a waste of time? Pointing out that the New Testament is the far and away the most bibliographically attested ancient text we have and that there is no reason to reasonably doubt its authenticity, this wasn't important? Pointing out miracles that are unexplainable outside of the acknowledgement of the supernatural fell on deaf ears? Recognizing that human beings are believing beings who long for meaning and purpose and that we implicitly and instinctively rightly reject the notion that we have no freedom, that there is no objective good or evil, that truth is relative, and that we and all around us is one big meaningless cosmic accident - none of that counts as evidence either? What about the personal experience of the divine that over 99% of all human beings, be them Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. throughout history have had, is that all just useless hearsay and wishful thinking? Boy oh boy, things would have been a lot easier if I could make a crazy claim like atheists do and then provide not a single shred of evidence and not a single coherent logical argument to support it and call it true.

I don't know that you're old enough for this reference, but when I was in grade school we used to have tacks that had flat heads and were used on the bulletin boards by the teachers. Once in awhile another kid would sneak one on another's kid chair, and of course when you sat down you got stuck in the butt.

But the "point" is, that little tack was more useful evidence than you've presented so far.

Can you please explain why you say this?