Simple question?

How would you feel if you were on a commercial flight and the pilot announced that he was going to let Jesus land the plane?

I know how I would feel!

Quote: FrGamble

marion_cotillard Anyway, above and beyond this powerful evidence

But it's NOT evidence! At one time people
believed a witch could curse their crops
and make them fail. They based their
belief on what they thought was a ton
of evidence, not the least of which was
that SO MANY OTHERS BELIEVED IT.
Of course it was true, if it wasn't there
wouldn't be so many believers. Do you
have any idea how strong your convictions
have to be to burn a poor sobbing woman
at the stake?

So don't sit there on your high throne and
look down on all us 'foolish' atheists for
not listening to all your believers stories.
Their beliefs are based on what they've
been told and are backed up by the beliefs of
others in the faith. I'm not getting near that
with a ten foot pole. And I sure as hell would
have never burned a witch without actual
evidence that she did something wrong. But
your church did. Because all they need is bad
theory and hearsay to make life and death
decisions. And here you are, loaded with theory
and hearsay and what to you is logical conclusions,
the Church still peddling it's bill of goods.
The more things change, the more they stay
the same.

Quote: Evenbob

And I sure as hell would
have never burned a witch without actual
evidence that she did something wrong.

Me too, because we are reasonable people who don't just take someone's word for it we investigate and look at more than one source of information. What it takes to commit such heinous crimes against supposed witches is not so much just hearsay, you have to be whipped up into a frenzy by evil people (none of which I know to be clerics of the Church, but maybe there were some), you also have to be starving, oppressed, uneducated, without hope, cold or too hot, grieving some tragedy and looking for a scapegoat, it helps to have false, fake, or circumstantial evidence - all of these conditions and probably a few more is what you have to have to burn a poor sobbing women at the stake. As you rightly point out, it is not some small thing. Just some loony preaching she turned me into a newt is not going to do it.

Quote: rxwine

How would you feel if you were on a commercial flight and the pilot announced that he was going to let Jesus land the plane?

I know how I would feel!

I think I would feel like I was going to meet the Lord Jesus sooner than I thought.

Quote: FrGamble

it helps to have false, fake, or circumstantial evidence - all of these conditions and probably a few more is what you have .

You just described what you present to
us as 'evidence', more or less. Especially
the false fake hearsay urban legend stuff
in the NT. Maybe now you'll understand
why atheists are perfectly happy not
believing in god due to lack of any real
evidence.

Quote: FrGamble

I think I would feel like I was going to meet the Lord Jesus sooner than I thought.

But according to you, he's already a
part of your life, giving you what
you need every day. Make up your
mind which story you want to go
with.

Quote: FrGamble

You are comparing apples to Volkswagens here.

It's an analogy.

"How is a raven like a writing desk?" would not be an analogy.

Quote:

Can you even fathom the idea that because you have not found the Face of God staring back at you from a telescope somewhere that you can with a serious face say there is no God.

I can say we've looked back in time billions of years, and even more billions of light-years across space, and we have found nary a single sign of sentient beings outside of Earth.

Quote:

Please, please, just give me one logical argument in support of astrology.

Look one up online, I'm sure there are many. Astrology was a big fad at Mensa in the 70s and 80s, which just goes to show the members didn't speak Spanish ;) Or that Smart people can be incredibly stupid in some ways.

Quote:

Christianity did not spread by coercion.

Yes, it did.

Quote:

I leave it to your expertise in this area, but it was my understanding that almost right away after Constantine moved to Constantinople that the Western Roman Empire began to crumble; constantly begging for help to protect it from powerful states.

There was one powerful state in Europe at the time: Rome. There was a very powerful state in Asia, bordering the eastern half of the empire: the Sassanid Empire, the latest incarnation of Persia. Your understanding is way off the mark. it's not even in the same Solar System as reality.

Here's a quick summary:

1) Constantine I lavished money on churches and related projects. He did not move the seat of provincial authority and wealth from the local elites to the Imperial Court (Diocletian did that), but he took full advantage of it, requiring office-seekers to be Christian if they hoped to have a prayer of being appointed. Likewise in the army. Though he found it easier to replace local flunkies than officers, so several high-ranking pagan officers remained in the Legions for decades.

2) Aside from Julian I, all of Constantine's successors kept up the pressure, progressively making the practice of pagan cults ever more difficult and/or expensive.

3) When Theodosius I took the throne, he was determined to end the pagan cults. Granted he faced a rebellion from the western half, but he pretty much took up arms to Christianize the West. Pagan cults were forbidden after that, with plenty of violence to go with the proscription (Nero would have approved).

Consider that even at the height of the persecutions undertaken by Diocletian, no Christian was ever forbidden from practicing Christianity. They were only required to sacrifice to the real gods. The persecutions undertaken by Theodosius and his successors absolutely forbade practicing any of the pagan cults. The best you can argue is that the Christians did not put all their cruel executions and tortures on display at the arena.

They got so good at persecution, too, that they extended it to the Jews and to other Christians. It wasn't safe to follow Arius, or to practice the Monophysite confession in the all-merciful, bloodthirsty land that Rome became after Christianity took over and married the state.

The western half of the empire fell around 470 CE. The eastern half nominally fell only in the 1450 s, but really it was much diminished by the 7th and 8th centuries, when it lost Egypt, Mesopotamia and even parts of Anatolia to the Caliphate (which, btw, did not persecute either Christians or Jews).

Quote:

What legions or purse strings did the missionaries who were sent to the Far East, Asia, or Africa have?

You do know all of North Africa, and even parts of the Sudan and Ethiopia were Roman provinces, yes? Constantine's money was used for missions to neighboring lands, not under Roman rule. I've no idea how much was given for missions after that. I do know the vast majority of the lands outside of Europe and the Americas are not Christian.

Quote:

How do you explain the ever growing Catholic Church around the world today?

Are you sure it's growing?

Quote:

My question is what if I say, "You shouldn't do that because it is against reason or nature."?

I'd ignore you.

Quote: FrGamble

I think I would feel like I was going to meet the Lord Jesus sooner than I thought.

Do you think that's how the passengers of the German Wings flight felt?

Quote: Nareed

The western half of the empire fell around 470 CE. The eastern half nominally fell only in the 1450 s, but really it was much diminished by the 7th and 8th centuries, when it lost Egypt, Mesopotamia and even parts of Anatolia to the Caliphate (which, btw, did not persecute either Christians or Jews).

Thanks for the above, you know your Roman history. So from above the Western empire fell a little less than 100 years after Christianity was made the state religion. And as you mentioned the East was really mostly run over by Islam by the 7th and 8th century. I am just wondering how you think the worldwide spread of Christianity was because of this less than a century old support from a quickly failing empire and one under siege by Muslims.

By the way I love how you don't think killing someone because they don't do something that is against their religion is not persecution. Nor do you think living as a second class citizen unable to hold office in government or any substantial position along with extra taxes just because you are Christian or a Jew is not persecution. Let's not even talk about what the Caliphate would do to anyone not "people of the book". Maybe even you would agree that in those cases there was persecution.

Quote:

Are you sure it's growing?

Yes.

Quote:

I'd ignore you.

Obvious and sad.

BTW, under pagan predominance, Roman politics involved a great many assassinations, back-stabbing, in-fighting and corruption.

Under Christian supremacy Roman politics became a mess of assassinations, back-stabbing, in-fighting and corruption.

As you can see, they were completely different.