Simple question?

Are you sure it's growing?
Yes.

That's true, it's growing in mostly poor
countries like in S America and shrinking
in the rich countries in Europe. And the
Church's clergy is shrinking and retiring.
There's a worldwide shortage of priests
and nuns and will only get worse as the
clergy is aging and half of it will retire
in the next 5 years. I posted links to this
and will not do it again.

Quote: Nareed

BTW, under pagan predominance, Roman politics involved a great many assassinations, back-stabbing, in-fighting and corruption.
Under Christian supremacy Roman politics became a mess of assassinations, back-stabbing, in-fighting and corruption..

I've said before, if you read the history
of the Church, you won't find god. You
will find smart and greedy men lusting
after power.

Quote: Evenbob

I've said before, if you read the history
of the Church, you won't find god. You
will find smart and greedy men lusting
after power.

I imagine if you read the history of anything you will find smart and greedy men lusting after power. And yet there is no sin, right?!?

Quote: FrGamble

Thanks for the above, you know your Roman history. So from above the Western empire fell a little less than 100 years after Christianity was made the state religion.

Edward Gibbon is convinced Christianity is the cause of the fall of the empire. I just think it was a major factor.

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And as you mentioned the East was really mostly run over by Islam by the 7th and 8th century.

That's the least of it. for the next few centuries, essentially it was forced to play defense in the one-yard line against the Caliphate.

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I am just wondering how you think the worldwide spread of Christianity was because of this less than a century old support from a quickly failing empire and one under siege by Muslims.

I'm not sure about this, but it seems that while Christianity spread to many places, it was never popular, and much less dominant, outside of Europe and a few spots in Africa, until it was again forced on a captive, decimated population in the Americas.

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By the way I love how you don't think killing someone because they don't do something that is against their religion is not persecution.

It is. My point is that Rome never forbade the practice of Christianity.

Their justification was that when people stopped making sacrifices, the gods expressed their displeasure in destructive ways. No one is spared when Jupiter hurls lightning bolts, you know. As you believe the exact same thing, albeit with a different justification, I'm sure you can sympathize with their position.

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Nor do you think living as a second class citizen unable to hold office in government or any substantial position along with extra taxes just because you are Christian or a Jew is not persecution.

Or because you're a pagan? Of course it is. Again, though, there was no proscription on Christianity or Judaism.

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Let's not even talk about what the Caliphate would do to anyone not "people of the book".

Or what the Christians did to heretics?

You may want to find a dictionary of Mexican slang and look up "como no tiene cola que le pisen."

Quote: Nareed

Edward Gibbon is convinced Christianity is the cause of the fall of the empire. I just think it was a major factor.

It is true that Christianity and power don't mix.

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That's the least of it. for the next few centuries, essentially it was forced to play defense in the one-yard line against the Caliphate.

I agree. It is somewhat miraculous Christendom survived and it surely was not helped by the desperate and inefficient crusades.

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I'm not sure about this, but it seems that while Christianity spread to many places, it was never popular, and much less dominant, outside of Europe and a few spots in Africa, until it was again forced on a captive, decimated population in the Americas.

It is not about being forced, in fact that hurts the spread of the Gospel. What I think you are getting close to realizing is that the faith spreads quickest among the poor and those who are considered unimportant in the worlds eyes. This corresponds with our Savior Himself.

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It is. My point is that Rome never forbade the practice of Christianity.

Their justification was that when people stopped making sacrifices, the gods expressed their displeasure in destructive ways. No one is spared when Jupiter hurls lightning bolts, you know. As you believe the exact same thing, albeit with a different justification, I'm sure you can sympathize with their position.

I'm glad you recognize it is a form of persecution, one of the worst in that it is insidious and pretends to grant freedom when it most certainly does not. You really should stop embarrassing yourself by trying to tell me what I believe. You couldn't be more wrong. God's love is unconditional for all people whether they worship Him or through no fault of their own do not.

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Or because you're a pagan? Of course it is. Again, though, there was no proscription on Christianity or Judaism.

No, if you were pagan in the Caliphate you were killed. Again you seem to be very wishy-washy on the idea that allowing someone to practice their faith in a very limited way and adding extra burdens on them when they do so is not persecution or that bad. I'm a little frightened by that because it seems to be the direction religious freedom is going in America. Our first and fundamental Freedom of Religion is being replaced with a freedom to worship.

'I agree. It is somewhat miraculous Christendom survived and it surely was not helped by the desperate and inefficient crusades.'

You mean it's a miracle Islam survived.
The Vatican was the powerhouse that
took back Jerusalem in 1199 in the
first crusade. Of course there had to
be six more just to keep getting it back
and today the Jews control it. But
the Church was never in any worry
that the Vatican was going to fall
into the hands of Muslims, no worries
at all.

Quote: Evenbob

You mean it's a miracle Islam survived.
The Vatican was the powerhouse that
took back Jerusalem in 1199 in the
first crusade. Of course there had to
be six more just to keep getting it back
and today the Jews control it. But
the Church was never in any worry
that the Vatican was going to fall
into the hands of Muslims, no worries
at all.

Quick - run do not walk to your nearest library and check out a history book! ASAP!

Quote: FrGamble

Quick - run do not walk to your nearest library and check out a history book! ASAP!

'Jerusalem was conquered by the Christian First Crusade in 1099, after it had been under Muslim rule for 450 years. It became the capital of the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, until it was again conquered by the Ayyubids in 1187. For the next 40 years, a series of Christian campaigns (the Third, Fourth and Fifth Crusades) attempted in vain to retake the city, until Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor leading the Sixth Crusade successfully negotiated its return in 1229.'

Wiki

I'm sure the Vatican has their own history
of what happened that is wildly different
from the truth.

Read again the very quote you gave and you can see the truth. The crusades were a disaster in so many ways. They in no way threatened the Caliphate or stemmed the spread of Islam, which was a breath away from conquering Europe and Christendom many times.

Quote: FrGamble

which was a breath away from conquering Europe and Christendom many times.

But the Church prevailed because of it's wealth
and influence. A breath away is a little melodramatic.
They were a threat, but there was never a chance
they would have succeeded after about the 11th
century.