Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

It is true that Christianity and power don't mix.

That's too bad, for you. Because it's power that keeps the churches humming.

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I agree. It is somewhat miraculous Christendom survived and it surely was not helped by the desperate and inefficient crusades.

Amazing how often and how badly infallibility fails.

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What I think you are getting close to realizing is that the faith spreads quickest among the poor and those who are considered unimportant in the worlds eyes.

I've found it spreads more quickly amongst those who have a sword-point held at their back, a knife to their neck, or a gun to their head, while being told "Accept Jesus or else!"

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I'm glad you recognize it is a form of persecution, one of the worst in that it is insidious and pretends to grant freedom when it most certainly does not.

The thing is that it was easy to avoid being persecuted merely by burning some meats and muttering a prayer. What's so hard about that? It's certainly easier, and more moral, than allowing yourself and your family to be devoured alive by lions at the arena. Do you know what rich Christians did during the persecutions? They sent a pagan servant to make a sacrifice in their name. If charity really is something Christians practice, these wealthy Christians ought to have offered the services of their servants to their poorer coreligionists to satisfy the authorities. But apparently making a spectacle of their deaths was more satisfying than living.

Put another way: Christian martyrs in the time of the Roman persecutions, were stupid, masochistic and chauvinistic people.

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You really should stop embarrassing yourself by trying to tell me what I believe. You couldn't be more wrong. God's love is unconditional for all people whether they worship Him or through no fault of their own do not.

So Jehovah unconditionally loved all those people he murdered in cold blood. Good to know. Hey, it's personal, but I love you. How is that different from a man who beats his wife, I can't possibly say.

That aside, did you not make claims recently about the reason why hurricane Matthew showed up? Or defended the claims that the great Lisbon earthquake was divine punishment for the use of lightning rods in America? How is that different from a pagan desire to keep the gods happy by supplying them with sacrifices.

BTW, in a fit of never changing their beliefs, latter pagans developed the always-held belief of proxy sacrifices. Meaning the sacrifices of a few to the gods were enough to keep the Olympians and others happy, thus securing the well-being of Rome. Of course they'd always believed this way and nothing ever changed. Nothing.

But the Christians so sensitive about persecutions, persecuted them for this, too.

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No, if you were pagan in the Caliphate you were killed.

Pagans in Christendom were killed too.

And recent research indicates that the level of dead doesn't vary significantly whether you're killed by a Christian or a Muslim. Remarkable.

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Again you seem to be very wishy-washy on the idea that allowing someone to practice their faith in a very limited way and adding extra burdens on them when they do so is not persecution or that bad.

It is. But there are degrees in persecution. Christian persecution in the Dark Ages was by far the worst. It didn't improve in the Renaissance, either. I'd put in on a par with Islamic persecution of Christians today in some Muslim countries.

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Our first and fundamental Freedom of Religion is being replaced with a freedom to worship.

I fail to see what else it rationally could be.

The Reformation era shows when Christians disagree in the ritual to use when worshipping, they kill each other in large numbers.

Quote: Nareed

Amazing how often and how badly infallibility fails.

Again it shows your ignorance when you claim the crusades had anything to do with infallibility. Keep chasing those imaginary dragons.

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I've found it spreads more quickly amongst those who have a sword-point held at their back, a knife to their neck, or a gun to their head, while being told "Accept Jesus or else!"

This has never happened and you know it. This is how the Christian faith dies and is the opposite of everything it stands for. Stop letting Evenbob write your posts. By the way this whole post I'm trying to comment on here is one of the worst and most inaccurate you have ever posted.

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The thing is that it was easy to avoid being persecuted merely by burning some meats and muttering a prayer. What's so hard about that? It's certainly easier, and more moral, than allowing yourself and your family to be devoured alive by lions at the arena. Do you know what rich Christians did during the persecutions? They sent a pagan servant to make a sacrifice in their name. If charity really is something Christians practice, these wealthy Christians ought to have offered the services of their servants to their poorer coreligionists to satisfy the authorities. But apparently making a spectacle of their deaths was more satisfying than living.

First of all what you are saying about wealthy Christians in that era is not true, it is a lie or a myth. I've no doubt some rich people would send their servants to do all kinds of things to avoid trouble, but this was not the practice of rich Christians - just look at the martyrology to know that.

Secondly, think about what you are saying here?!? It is very sick and disturbing. You seem to be saying that if you are being forced to do something against your will just go ahead and do it and then they will leave you alone for a little while, until they want more. Would you say this to a victim of sexual abuse, would you say this to a black woman who wants to sit in the front of the bus, would you dare say this to a homosexual who is not allowed to visit his or her loved one in the hospital? If they dare to stand up and speak out for their rights and what they believe they get what is coming to them? Is that really what you think!?! It is the victims fault for being fed to the lions! You have to be very careful these are hateful, bitter, and bigoted words against Christians - but they could be applied to many different people.

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So Jehovah unconditionally loved all those people he murdered in cold blood. Good to know. Hey, it's personal, but I love you. How is that different from a man who beats his wife, I can't possibly say.

God does not murder anyone. The consequences of sin are real and people get hurt and die not because of the evil actions of others. Why you blame God is strange. How is it different than blaming a landowner when a tenet beats his wife or the movie theatre owner when someone shots up the place?

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That aside, did you not make claims recently about the reason why hurricane Matthew showed up?

Um...you mean besides warm and cool water and air pressure stuff causing atmospheric disturbances and such we call a hurricane, no.

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Pagans in Christendom were killed too.

According to you all they would have to do is go to Mass on Sunday and avoid persecution, so I don't know what you are talking about. Actually you don't know what you are talking about if you dare to compare how pagans were treated in Christendom and today with how the Caliphate treated pagans then and still today!

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It is. But there are degrees in persecution. Christian persecution in the Dark Ages was by far the worst. It didn't improve in the Renaissance, either. I'd put in on a par with Islamic persecution of Christians today in some Muslim countries.

I'm convinced you have no idea what you are talking about. Did your history courses end after Egypt and the Roman Empire?!? Either keep talking about that time period or get some new courses.

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The Reformation era shows when Christians disagree in the ritual to use when worshipping, they kill each other in large numbers.

We are soon going to be commemorating the 500th anniversary of the Reformation and Pope Francis is going to lead a special prayer service with worldwide leaders of the Lutheran Church. It was not so much Christians that caused and used the teachings of Martin Luther to grab power and kill their opponents, it was the wealthy and the states. As I've mentioned and as is shown throughout history. The Christian faith only grows and spreads through either the sacrifice of martyrdom, the humility of the saints, holding up the dignity of the poor and all human life, or a mixture of all three.

God doesn't murder people?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

Perhaps you will tell us that these were all just punishments and it was their own fault. You know, blaming the victim.

Maybe you'll tell us that these are just allegorical, didn't really happen, and are just supposed to teach us a lesson.

While you are at it, maybe you can justify how these direct and indirect actions by god don't interfere with our free will.

Quote: Dalex64

God doesn't murder people?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

Perhaps you will tell us that these were all just punishments and it was their own fault. You know, blaming the victim.

Maybe you'll tell us that these are just allegorical, didn't really happen, and are just supposed to teach us a lesson.

While you are at it, maybe you can justify how these direct and indirect actions by god don't interfere with our free will.

Is there a difference between murder and kill?

Quote: FrGamble

Again it shows your ignorance when you claim the crusades had anything to do with infallibility.

I admit I've no clue what the famous Papal infallibility applies to. But few people really do. Most assume they're infallible. Period. End of story. It's an easy target.

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This has never happened and you know it.

Funny how the Christian emperors had to coerce well over half the population, and then the Catholic conquerors of the New World did the same (the Protestant conquerors largely did not; they committed different kinds of atrocities), but it never happens.

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First of all what you are saying about wealthy Christians in that era is not true, it is a lie or a myth.

Well, not all of them did this. but there's documentation for many of them. Or perhaps they just lapsed, like thousands of poor Romans did.

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Secondly, think about what you are saying here?!?

I'm saying the pagans persecuted the Christians with less vigor, less zeal, and less murderous intent than the Christians later persecuted the pagans. This is very common when dominance is reversed. The White Terror that followed THE Terror in the French Revolution was pretty much like this.

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God does not murder anyone.

So you maintain that in the Exodus Myth, the plagues, the killing of the first born, and the drowning of soldiers in the "Red Sea," were entirely perpetrated by the Egyptians themselves? Jehovah had nothing to do with it?

Unfortunately it would not impress my family if I declined to attend a Passover Seder on the grounds that a Catholic priest assures me their god wasn't involved in taking the Jews out of Egypt. Too bad I need an out for next year.

Anyway, would you also be saying the victims of the Flood made it rain on their own, no help from Jehovah? And the builders at Babel mixed up their own languages by themselves, too?

So what the effing good is this Jehovah?

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Um...you mean besides warm and cool water and air pressure stuff causing atmospheric disturbances and such we call a hurricane, no.

You can lie to yourself all you want. Not my business. But I know what you said.

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Actually you don't know what you are talking about if you dare to compare how pagans were treated in Christendom and today with how the Caliphate treated pagans then and still today!

I compare how Christians treated pagans to how Muslims treat Christians today in some countries. Or did you not hear of Coptic churches being attacked in Egypt? Or perhaps you don't consider the Copts to be Christian?

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Did your history courses end after Egypt and the Roman Empire?!?

No, but I tend to skip most of the vast empty void of Christian Supremacy we know as the Dark Ages. It's too depressing.

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It was not so much Christians that caused and used the teachings of Martin Luther to grab power and kill their opponents, it was the wealthy and the states.

Were these people Christians or not?

Quote: Nareed

So you maintain that in the Exodus Myth, the plagues, the killing of the first born, and the drowning of soldiers in the "Red Sea," were entirely perpetrated by the Egyptians themselves? Jehovah had nothing to do with it?

Unfortunately it would not impress my family if I declined to attend a Passover Seder on the grounds that a Catholic priest assures me their god wasn't involved in taking the Jews out of Egypt. Too bad I need an out for next year.

Of course God had a lot to do with it. God takes it seriously when innocent people are enslaved with hard labor and their children murdered in front of them. How many times should God have warned the Egyptians to let His people go? How many more prophets should He have sent? God showed great restraint in what led up to the Passover and even during the Passover. Yeah, so don't use me as an excuse. God saved His chosen people from the cruel slavery of the Egyptians and you should honor and remember that at least every year, especially with family.

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Anyway, would you also be saying the victims of the Flood made it rain on their own, no help from Jehovah? And the builders at Babel mixed up their own languages by themselves, too?

God sent the rain and confused the languages but He did not do it wantonly or out of the blue. One consistent thing that separates the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob from all the gods of old is the constant pleas through prophets and through direct intervention to cajole and bet the people to stop their sins. He warns them of the consequences and also laments having to go through with the lesson and consequences of their actions.

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You can lie to yourself all you want. Not my business. But I know what you said.

I'm sorry, I got confused about you making it directly about Hurricane Matthew or some specific earthquake. I don't believe God sends these things in any way in response to our actions. Rather what I said earlier is that such things as hurricanes and earthquakes exist because our world is broken by sin. We continue to harm the environment all the time and go against nature and one of God's very first commands to us - take care of your home! So what you think I said was not what I said and I hope I have clarified that for you.

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I compare how Christians treated pagans to how Muslims treat Christians today in some countries. Or did you not hear of Coptic churches being attacked in Egypt? Or perhaps you don't consider the Copts to be Christian?

They are beautiful Christians, but that wouldn't matter. Any human being treated in the way these radical Muslims are demonstrating is an offense against humanity and God Himself.

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No, but I tend to skip most of the vast empty void of Christian Supremacy we know as the Dark Ages. It's too depressing.

Yeah if you think that I can tell you definitely have skipped that period of history.

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Were these people Christians or not?

They acted like the only thing that mattered was their power, wealth, and prestige. In short they lived like there was no God or afterlife.

Quote: FrGamble

Of course God had a lot to do with it.

How many Egyptians do you figure Jehovah kills in the story? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

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God takes it seriously when innocent people are enslaved with hard labor and their children murdered in front of them.

Yeah, we all saw what Jehovah did about the Holocaust, or the Soviet Gulags, or the Cultural Revolution, or the French Catholic colony of Saint Domingue, or the American South.

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God saved His chosen people from the cruel slavery of the Egyptians and you should honor and remember that at least every year, especially with family.

If I were to honor a myth, I'd choose a nicer one. Or at least one with an actually moral character.

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God sent the rain and confused the languages

Ah, and how many people and animals were killed by your god then? Millions? Billions?

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One consistent thing that separates the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob from all the gods of old is the constant pleas through prophets and through direct intervention to cajole and bet the people to stop their sins. He warns them of the consequences and also laments having to go through with the lesson and consequences of their actions.

That's a bit like parsing Al Capone because he warned you "Do as I tell you and nobody gets hurt."

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I don't believe God sends these things in any way in response to our actions.

I won't dig up the post, but that was what you implied.

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Rather what I said earlier is that such things as hurricanes and earthquakes exist because our world is broken by sin.

Ah, there it is!

So, your god loves Haiti so much he chose to kill thousands with a hurricane. Or perhaps the Haitians were to blame? Or maybe the hurricane happened because I ate bacon this year? there's a clear correlation for that, you know. I eat bacon every year, and every year there's some terrible natural disaster somewhere.

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Any human being treated in the way these radical Muslims are demonstrating is an offense against humanity and God Himself.

Then the Christian Roman emperors, prefects and monks who persecuted the pagans with similar tactics, in the name of Christ, were demonstrating the same thing, or do you make an exception for them because they were on your side?

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They acted like the only thing that mattered was their power, wealth, and prestige. In short they lived like there was no God or afterlife.

It's easy to paint all Christians as good, when faced with evidence to the contrary you declare them "not Christian."

Quote: Nareed

How many Egyptians do you figure Jehovah kills in the story? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

I'm not sure, I wonder how it compares with the number of Israelites tortured to death or babies killed.

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That's a bit like parsing Al Capone because he warned you "Do as I tell you and nobody gets hurt."

First of all don't you realize that you recently were extolling this type of deplorable behavior as an example of gentle persecution from the Romans. Secondly, what Capone was telling people to do was not in their best interest or according to reason or nature. God only wants what is best for us so we can thrive as human beings. When we go against Him - or so you can understand it - when we go against natural law or reason there are consequences. I know you hate this realization but we simply cannot avoid doing what is right and pretend that we and others, sometimes many others including innocents, will get hurt. God is not directly causing this because we didn't jump through some hoop. We didn't do what is best for us and we then have to deal with the consequences. It is a good thing that no matter what God will forgive us.

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Ah, there it is!

So, your god loves Haiti so much he chose to kill thousands with a hurricane.

Please show me how you get from the idea that the world is broken because of sin to God choosing to kill anyone.

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Then the Christian Roman emperors, prefects and monks who persecuted the pagans with similar tactics, in the name of Christ, were demonstrating the same thing, or do you make an exception for them because they were on your side?

I don't know about the emperors, but based on what they did to the early Christians I wouldn't put them preforming heinous acts beyond them. However, you are wrong when you speak about monks or other religious doing such things and I think you either know that or are speaking from ignorance informed by bias and prejudice.

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It's easy to paint all Christians as good, when faced with evidence to the contrary you declare them "not Christian."

It is very easy to show that such actions are "not Christian" and are more in line with someone who has no religious beliefs.

Quote: FrGamble

when we go against natural law or reason there are consequences. .

When we jump from a plane without
a chute we die. When we drink too
much we get drunk. When I imagine
my neighbors wife naked, or lie to
get myself out of trouble, that's my
concern and nobody elses. There
is nobody judging me, Santa isn't
even making a list, let alone some
god. Humans are so proud and
vainful, they delight in thinking they
are the apple of some deities eye.
Hubris on parade..

Quote: Evenbob

There
is nobody judging me,

That is a lie and you know it. If you are honest with yourself, you judge yourself for these things and your own conscience condemns you. We know what we should and shouldn't do and yet we do or don't do it anyway. We are always much harsher on ourselves than our loving and merciful God.