Simple question?

I think the most modern term for manipulations. "someone is trying to play you".

Quote: FrGamble

It describes how even when I acknowledge good challenges and questions from so many here I get nothing except relentless attacks in return.

I only go to war in self defense (and against Windows 8).

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It is as if we are scared of admitting when the other person mentions something that is correct or challenging.

It's this patronizing attitude that generates such hostility. You give two very negative impressions when this happens:

1) That any mention of "God" or scripture ought to be met with uncritical, unthinking acceptance, because it's so glaringly obvious.

2) That anything good anyone does anywhere for any reason, is either due to some kind of acceptance of "God," or influenced by "God" in some fashion. It's like clinging to a talisman that you also shove into everyone's faces.

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Maybe we can declare a ceasefire and better appreciate others for at least one day.

It's a strategic blunder to give the enemy respite, unless you need it yourself as well. But I'm willing to accept unconditional surrender at any time.

Quote: Nareed

It's this patronizing attitude that generates such hostility. You give two very negative impressions when this happens:

1) That any mention of "God" or scripture ought to be met with uncritical, unthinking acceptance, because it's so glaringly obvious.

This is not true at all. I thought I was trying to encourage us to think critically about God. I often feel it is you and others who are accepting without thinking even the possibility of God. Look I am under no impression that over these chats on the internet people are going to come to some great conversion and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior (thought that would be nice). I am just hoping that you can see that faith in God is not unreasonable. I believe that faith is not the fruit of blind and unthinking acceptance and I am puzzled by your continuing insistence that it is and your sometimes offensive comments towards me. I'm sorry if I have returned fire sometimes and said things I shouldn't but I certainly do not think you or many of the atheists on this forum are unthinking or uncritical in their thoughts, that should be glaringly obvious.

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2) That anything good anyone does anywhere for any reason, is either due to some kind of acceptance of "God," or influenced by "God" in some fashion. It's like clinging to a talisman that you also shove into everyone's faces.

I do hold that God is the source of good and the reason we can use the adjectives good and bad, but I am aware that belief in God is not required to do good. I have learned that very strongly here and at WOV.

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It's a strategic blunder to give the enemy respite, unless you need it yourself as well. But I'm willing to accept unconditional surrender at any time.

The only thing I need respite from is the war references and the mean judgmental statements. I have already unconditional surrendered everything to my loving God.

Quote: FrGamble

I have already unconditional surrendered everything to my loving God.

I'm sorry, I had to laugh. Surrendering
to a god who you can't prove exists
is like surrendering to yourself. It's
kind of meaningless. If you surrendered
to other men who believe in god, you
surrendered to them, not to a god. And
that can get you into a great deal of
trouble.

Quote: FrGamble

This is not true at all.

"God says it's not natural." "God says marriage is between one man and one woman only." Or maybe it's "the church" rather than "God," which makes as much difference as one divided by ten taken to the 1,000,000,000th power.

So what? Why should I give a damn what "God" says, even if he were real?

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I thought I was trying to encourage us to think critically about God.

I have. That's why I've rejected the whole idea of "God" and divinity along with other "supernatural" nonsense like astrology, ghosts, ESP, etc.

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I often feel it is you and others who are accepting without thinking even the possibility of God.

Methinks you mean "rejecting."

It's not unthinking. It's simply effortless after much thought and practice.

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I am just hoping that you can see that faith in God is not unreasonable.

How reasonable is faith in Yeti, or Athena, or The Force?

More important, how reasonable is faith?

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I believe that faith is not the fruit of blind and unthinking acceptance and I am puzzled by your continuing insistence that it is and your sometimes offensive comments towards me.

Well, the only way to accept something that doesn't exist is to blind yourself to what we know about the world, nature, physics, the universe (but I repeat myself), even history and philosophy.

This is not literally so. You cannot rationalize facts and events and systems without looking at them first. But you can't accept them, either. So I stand by the sentence above.

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I certainly do not think you or many of the atheists on this forum are unthinking or uncritical in their thoughts, that should be glaringly obvious.

That has never been my concern.

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I do hold that God is the source of good and the reason we can use the adjectives good and bad, but I am aware that belief in God is not required to do good. I have learned that very strongly here and at WOV.

See, you did it again.

The implication is that one may not believe in Jehovah, yet be influenced by him and thus be capable of doing good.

And the implications of that implication really get offensive, at least for those of us who take pride in our ability to think for ourselves. So I'll not get into it.

Quote: Nareed

"God" created Hell along with the rules that send people there. He then sent himself down to Earth, where he sacrificed himself to save us from himself.

I literally cannot see any other possible interpretation. Unfortunately it makes zero logical sense. In a protection racket, a criminal creates a threat, then gives you the means to "save" yourself from the threat he created. This is the same thing in principle.

I agree.

FrGamble, you are trying to get people to admit that god is a possibility, while at the same time denying the possibility that there is no god.

You also won't admit the possibility that if there is a supreme being, that one of the other religions might be more accurately delivering the supreme being's message.

With those kinds of absolute and immovable positions on things, is it any wonder that you are having trouble getting people to come around to your way of thinking, even a little bit?

This is a Muslim who can quote the Bible verbatim (apparently). Since a Catholic woman is asking the question, I thought I'd ask FrGamble what he thinks of what the guys said. Btw, he said he would convert to Christianity if you can provide a particular bit of evidence.

His English is a bit hard to understand (I think) when he talks fast, but listening closely you can keep track.

Quote: Nareed

So what? Why should I give a damn what "God" says, even if he were real?

Because maybe, just maybe, you don't know everything.

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It's not unthinking. It's simply effortless after much thought and practice.

Too easy to respond so I will not write what I am thinking.

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More important, how reasonable is faith?

Probably the most reasonable and important thing we have. It is how we life our lives. We have faith that what those whom we trust tell us is true, we have faith in love; faith is how we live our lives.




[qWell, the only way to accept something that doesn't exist is to blind yourself to what we know about the world, nature, physics, the universe (but I repeat myself), even history and philosophy.

Quote: Wizard

I agree.

I disagree. God is just and therefore their is real and serious consequences for evil. I don't think anyone will disagree with this principal. At the same time God is loving and wants no one to suffer the eternal consequences of our poor choices. He becomes one of us to save us from our evil. God didn't create the threat to ourselves, we did that. God saves us for the threat we have created for ourselves. He is more like a loving father who saves us from ourselves than some kind of protection racket.