Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

The not is fairly simple. Do you think that energy can create itself? If so do you have evidence for that?

Yes: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It's eternal. It cannot create itself, anymore than the one true god Amun could create himself if he existed. An eternal entity has always existed. It lacks either a beginning or an end.

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Are you aware that existence is not necessary and neither is space?

Are you aware that you're wrong? Without existence, nothing could exist, not even an all-powerful, eternal deity. Without space, existence is not possible.

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Get ready to have mind blown, but even space is a thing.

I know.

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Do you want me to scientifically prove it?

No. I want you to scientifically disprove it.

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That is way above my pay grade and I think not possible for anyone.

Really? Hmm. I won't ask what you make, but I'm sure it's more than what I make. Perhaps you ought to donate the difference to me, seeing as I can disprove my own claim in, oh, a few minutes and with the benefit of thousands of years of human learning (If I can see further, it's because I stand on the shoulders of giants **).

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Philosophically however Energy cannot be eternal because it does not have its reason for existence in itself, which is the definition of non-contingent.

Are you telling me Jehovah does???



** Qualitatively, if not in depth, any educated person today knows more physics than Newton ever imagined possible. Wow!

Quote: FrGamble

for there to be anything at all that cannot explain its own existence then there must be at the very beginning something that does not depend on anything else for its existence,

Says who. You're once again making up
details to explain your made up gods
existence. You just love reverse engineering,
did they teach it in seminary? The whole
thing starts rolling with the faulty premise
that you think you see a creation, so you
hunt for a creator. You then fill in the blanks
(and blanks is all you have) like you're trying
to do here.

Quote: Nareed

Yes: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It's eternal. It cannot create itself, anymore than the one true god Amun could create himself if he existed. An eternal entity has always existed. It lacks either a beginning or an end.

The one true God is not created and is truly eternal. This is the very definition of God, it is not the definition of energy which we know at one time must have been created because it obviously (I think) is not necessary to exist.

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Are you aware that you're wrong? Without existence, nothing could exist, not even an all-powerful, eternal deity. Without space, existence is not possible.

Let me rephrase. Energy/matter and all that makes up the things that we can observe is not necessary. You are correct even without all energy/matter, time, and space God would still exist. He is that which is.

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Really? Hmm. I won't ask what you make, but I'm sure it's more than what I make. Perhaps you ought to donate the difference to me, seeing as I can disprove my own claim in, oh, a few minutes and with the benefit of thousands of years of human learning (If I can see further, it's because I stand on the shoulders of giants **).

Ha, I had to laugh at that one. I am beyond confident that everyone on this forum including yourself makes a heck of a lot more than me, but then again I don't have to pay for my two rooms and private bath. Anyway, please disprove your own claim and help a brother out.

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Are you telling me Jehovah does???

It is the very definition of God.

By the way I was wondering why you use the incorrect translation of YHWH so much to describe the Lord God?

Quote: Evenbob

The whole
thing starts rolling with the faulty premise
that you think you see a creation, so you
hunt for a creator.

I don't think I see a creation, I do. And so do you. Do you think you are the cause of your own existence? Do you think the computer you are using is the cause of its own existence? Do you think that the atoms and electrons that make up these things have their reason for existing in themselves? It is obvious that we and all around us is created. Either this stuff has always been here which I think is illogical because of an infinite regress, but I know you still hold that matter is eternal, so then you would be hunting for the reason this matter moves, lives, and comes together. You are looking for a creator of strange eternal matter. I am looking for an all powerful creator who made all that exists? Basically it seems to me that you just are looking for a creator that is one step ahead of mine.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think I see a creation, I do. .

You just have no evidence and hence, no
proof. I understand. Just like there is no
evidence that sin exists, and even less
evidence that we need some being to
'save' us from it. You actually think thru
convoluted logic a person might stumble
onto god and just be amazed. All you're
stumbling onto is you tricking yourself.
Again.

Quote: FrGamble

The one true God is not created and is truly eternal.

Really? Athena tells me otherwise.

But if the "one true god," does not need to create itself, then why should any other non-contingent, eternal entity have to do so?

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Let me rephrase. Energy/matter and all that makes up the things that we can observe is not necessary.

Yes, it is.

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Ha, I had to laugh at that one. I am beyond confident that everyone on this forum including yourself makes a heck of a lot more than me,

I think you underestimate the relative wealth ratio between America and Mexico.

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Anyway, please disprove your own claim and help a brother out.

Maybe when my sadistic (ie, godlike) feeling passes. Not now. It's really rather simple, virtually child's play.

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By the way I was wondering why you use the incorrect translation of YHWH so much to describe the Lord God?

The dictionary says his name in English is Jehovah. in Hebrew it's spelled (yes, it is spelled prominently in lots of places) Yud, Hey, Vav, Hey. That's more like YHVH. Like many Semitic languages, Hebrew has no vowels (the dashes and dots under and to the side of consonants is a latter development). I suppose Aleph and Ayin are vowels, but in school, I recall this much, we were taught they were "silent."

Anyway, the vowels were assumed to be known. So assuming the same vowels as in Greek and Latin, we have sounds like Ah (as in bAt), Eh (as in bEt), Ee (as in bIt), O (as in bOt) and Oo (as in bOOt) (BTW English has more than five vowels; nine or maybe eight by my count), so one can easily picture YEh Ho Vah H, with the last Hey silent, which is rather common when it's at the end of a word (WHY silent letters, ask someone who speaks neither Hebrew nor Spanish, at least; they both have silent letters).

Now, why name a god and then forbid saying his name is also beyond me.

Quote: Nareed

But if the "one true god," does not need to create itself, then why should any other non-contingent, eternal entity have to do so?

Other non-contingent beings? Then who is the truly all-powerful one? Did they create the universe together? If not then one is truly all-powerful and the others are a close second, but not the one true God. If they did create the universe together than they are really one, eternal, equal, all-powerful beings who share the same essence, where have I heard this before?

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Yes, it is.

Again a simple question can show you your error? Did the universe and all matter/energy have to exist? Can you logically imagine it doesn't? Yes you can, like you can already imagine I don't exist, and you don't, and everything else. It is not required, it is not necessary - and yet it exists. Why? or better How?

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I think you underestimate the relative wealth ratio between America and Mexico.

Even in the exchange I think you would be surprised.



From Wikipedia: "The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ("my Lord"). The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century.

"Jehovah" was popularized in the English-speaking world by William Tyndale and other pioneer English Protestant translations such as the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.[2] It is still used in some translations, such as the New World Translation and Young's Literal Translation, but it is does not appear in most mainstream English translations, as the terms "Lord" or "LORD": used instead, generally indicating that the corresponding Hebrew is Yahweh or YHWH"

Its a good, interesting, and complicated read.

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Now, why name a god and then forbid saying his name is also beyond me.

This is a good question and understanding it might help you realize why there can be only one non-contingent being. As you know the name God gives us YHWH is translated roughly as, "I am who am" or "I am being itself". The reason why it cannot be pronounced is because if you were to pronounce the sacred name of God you would be claiming to be God. You would be saying, "Narred is being itself." That is just false and cannot be spoken without being a lie.

You know Bob, you would do better if you tried to answer the questions being asked instead of just saying the same convoluted illogical things over and over again. It might help you understand what I am saying and come up with better answers that either reinforce your ideas or help you to think about what you are saying and better defend it. Just saying.

Quote: FrGamble

The reason why it cannot be pronounced is because if you were to pronounce the sacred name of God you would be claiming to be God.

More magical thinking. Our uber superstitious
fellow humans of ancient times thought words
had actual powers, many cultures felt this way.
It fit the times but is silliness personified today.
Like a few words and a ceremony can turn a
wafer and wine into flesh and blood. Magical
thinking used to control people.

Quote: FrGamble

You know Bob, you would do better if you tried to answer the questions

Ya know, FrG, everything you said in the
rest of that post you've said a couple
dozen times already. Just speculation
and opinion, there are no legitimate
questions there. I'm not interested in
philosophical arguments, I like actual
evidence. I learned in my 20's that you
can argue for years using nice sounding
yet empty arguments and end up right
where you started. Or where you are
now.