Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

Whereas name-calling is the sine-qua-non of the mature, fair rhetorician.

Good to know.

Good point, sorry about that. Exaggeration can also ruffle feathers especially when called ignorant.

Quote: FrGamble

Exaggeration can also ruffle feathers especially when called ignorant.

Do you not know the difference between "ignorant" and "argument from ignorance"?

If you don't, then it makes little sense to ask what evidence you have that the law of conservation of energy needs an exception as big as ten times the universe multiplied by the square of its volume taken to the ninth power times a googolplex (I exaggerate; it may be only the eighth power).

Quote: FrGamble

Just ask yourself can energy come from nothing? Can energy spontaneously exist without any source?

The law of conservation of energy states energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. This would mean energy is eternal.

Disprove it.

Quote: Nareed

The law of conservation of energy states energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. This would mean energy is eternal.

Disprove it.

First of all I take back everything I said during my little dust-up about your exaggeration comment. You were right and if I thought about it a little more I would have seen that you were not being ignorant but pointing out that you think my argument is fallacious because of ignorance.

Anyway, in my mind it is fairly easy to show that energy is not eternal. Does energy contain within itself its reason for being? The reason the answer is no is because we can easily imagine that there is no energy. Energy is not necessary, it does not have to exist. This goes beyond natural laws into the higher realm of metaphysics and basic logic. For any non necessary or contingent being/matter/energy to exist it must be created by something that is necessary and non-contingent. That has its being in itself, that is being itself.

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, in my mind it is fairly easy to show that energy is not eternal. .

Glad you said it's only in your mind,
because science doesn't agree with
your theory that meshes so nicely
with your belief in a mythical creator
god.

Science doesn't have anything to say about the creation of matter or a creator God.

Quote: FrGamble

Science doesn't have anything to say about the creation of matter or a creator God.

Why should it, science doesn't have
a lot to say about unicorns either.

Quote: FrGamble

Does energy contain within itself its reason for being?

Sure, why not?

Quote:

The reason the answer is no is because we can easily imagine that there is no energy.

Bad news: I can easily imagine there's no you.

Quote:

Energy is not necessary, it does not have to exist.

Are you aware whatever isn't space is some form of energy? Without energy you'd only have space. But without energy to drive the expansion of space, it would be infinitesimally small and completely empty.

No. It's not necessary. unless you want to, you know, exist.

Quote:

This goes beyond natural laws into the higher realm of metaphysics and basic logic. For any non necessary or contingent being/matter/energy to exist it must be created by something that is necessary and non-contingent. That has its being in itself, that is being itself.

Energy is non-contingent, since it is eternal.

Prove it's not.

Quote: Nareed

Sure, why not?



Bad news: I can easily imagine there's no you.



Are you aware whatever isn't space is some form of energy? Without energy you'd only have space. But without energy to drive the expansion of space, it would be infinitesimally small and completely empty.

No. It's not necessary. unless you want to, you know, exist.



Energy is non-contingent, since it is eternal.

Prove it's not.

I think the laws of thermodynamics proves that energy is not eternal because if it was then the temperature of the universe would be near absolute zero and it's not.

Quote: pew

I think the laws of thermodynamics proves that energy is not eternal because if it was then the temperature of the universe would be near absolute zero and it's not.

The average temperature of the universe is a frosty 2.73 K.

Absolute zero is 0 K.

Oh, some people will cite 5.05 K or so. That's almost twice as warm, but both are near 0 K.