Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

Other non-contingent beings?

Why not? It's all the flimsiest of speculation. There doesn't have to be one, no matter how much you protest against it. And if there is one, it's not necessarily the entity you say it is. But will you set different rules for different entities?

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Then who is the truly all-powerful one?

None. There cannot be such a thing as an all-powerful entity. Too many contradictions. For example, if the one true god Demeter were all powerful, she could create a duplicate of herself who would also be all powerful. So now we have two all powerful gods and consequently twice as much power as existed before. Only the amount of power remains the same: infinite. This means that X times two equals 2X but when you measure 2X it equals X.

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Again a simple question can show you your error? Did the universe and all matter/energy have to exist?

Did the one true god Minerva?

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The reason why it cannot be pronounced is because if you were to pronounce the sacred name of God you would be claiming to be God.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard (and I've heard Trump speak).

What do religious Jewish and Christian Egyptologists do? With nearly every Egyptian's name they'd be saying things like "Living image of Amun," "Mantu is pleased," "The soul and image of Ra," "Her life belongs to the Aten." The horror!!

When you use my forum name, you're not saying "May it always be so" (though of course the Anglicized spelling may be to blame; if you saw it in the traditional Anterian transliteration of Na'arid" you might have understood it). Nor when you use my real name are you saying "Pure" or "Purity." Nor when you meet someone named "Chris" do you assume, "oh, how devout!"

Quote: FrGamble

Anyway, please disprove your own claim and help a brother out.

Did you miss the hint or did you not realize it was a hint?

I thought completely missing it would be V I R T U A L L Y impossible.

Quote: Nareed

Why not? It's all the flimsiest of speculation. There doesn't have to be one, no matter how much you protest against it. And if there is one, it's not necessarily the entity you say it is. But will you set different rules for different entities?

There does fairly obviously have to be only one truly all-powerful entity.

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There cannot be such a thing as an all-powerful entity. Too many contradictions. For example, if the one true god Demeter were all powerful, she could create a duplicate of herself who would also be all powerful. So now we have two all powerful gods and consequently twice as much power as existed before. Only the amount of power remains the same: infinite. This means that X times two equals 2X but when you measure 2X it equals X.

This is the old, "Can God make a square circle or make a stone so heavy He cannot lift it?" To this the theologian Berkoff says, "There is no absolute power in God that is divorced from God's perfections." God is all-powerful and all-wise and all-good at the same time. He also cannot lie, cheat, or steal but this does not make God not all-powerful. You also seem to not grasp (and who of us does) the concept of infinite. Putting aside the logical and moral impossibilities of God creating a duplicate of Himself you still cannot have a being more powerful than the one that created the duplicate. You would have one non-contingent infinite all powerful being and another created all-powerful being that is not infinite. God's power is not diminished or increased by His creations because it is already infinite.

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Did the one true god Minerva?

Minerva, no. But the God who is being itself does have to exist, He cannot not exist. Even if there is no universe or space or time God still necessarily exist because unlike everything else He is the source of all creation and being, He is eternal and infinite. It might be helpful if you break out of the conception of God that equates Him to finite things like Minerva or FSM.

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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard (and I've heard Trump speak).

That could be the meanest thing you have ever said to me.

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What do religious Jewish and Christian Egyptologists do? With nearly every Egyptian's name they'd be saying things like "Living image of Amun," "Mantu is pleased," "The soul and image of Ra," "Her life belongs to the Aten." The horror!!

You very well could be the "living image of Amun" or the "The soul and image of Ra" but you or nothing other than God could be, "I am who is" or "I am being itself".

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Nor when you meet someone named "Chris" do you assume, "oh, how devout!"

This might be what your name or other names mean but by saying it you are not implicitly and explicitly stating that this person is that or that I am that. By pronouncing the sacred name of God, YHWH, you have to be saying that you are the essence of all being. You are not.

Quote: FrGamble

By pronouncing the sacred name of God, YHWH, you have to be saying that you are the essence of all being. You are not.

I don't get this either. You make up a name
and call it sacred and then make saying
the name magical. It's the height of pagan
superstition, thinking that words alone have
power. Without superstition and magical
thinking there would be nothing to the
Catholic church at all. To use one of FrG's
favorite words, it's really quite amazing.

Quote: FrGamble

There does fairly obviously have to be only one truly all-powerful entity.

Do you not comprehend the contradictions inherent in infinity?

Say the one true god Demeter is all powerful, and the one true god Minerva is all powerful, and the one true god Vash is all powerful. They each have 1/3 of all the power available, but they each have infinite power, because 1/3 of infinity is infinity. If one of them were to have Her powers cut in half, they'd still be infinite and equal to that of the others.

You can have an infinity of all powerful beings, each having the same and all the power as the others always.

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God's power is not diminished or increased by His creations because it is already infinite.

If such beings existed, that would be so. but then the one true god Venus would create six hundred septillion all powerful gods and still retain all her power while she shares it with her creations, who all have all the power as well. There is no limit to infinity.

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He cannot not exist.

And yet he managed. Good job!

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That could be the meanest thing you have ever said to me.

I thought you were relaying information, not presenting such a preposterous suggestion as your own.

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You very well could be the "living image of Amun" or the "The soul and image of Ra" but you or nothing other than God could be, "I am who is" or "I am being itself".

So if Jehovah said the name "Ankhasunamun," he'd cease being the high-almighty god and demote himself to a subservient role to the one true god Amun? Kind of like Mr Myxsplk (or whatever) can be banished by spelling his name backwards?

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This might be what your name or other names mean but by saying it you are not implicitly and explicitly stating that this person is that or that I am that. By pronouncing the sacred name of God, YHWH, you have to be saying that you are the essence of all being. You are not.

That's the most... I think I've said it before.

A name is what you call a person. It's not an ontological statement.

However, a noun is what a thing is and what the thing is called. Say the word "chair" is what we call a thing where people sit down, and what the thing itself is.

If we follow these two premises we find that Jehovah is not a person, but a thing.

Still, when I say the word "table" I'm not claiming I'm a table.

Quote: Wizard

I think "saved" is not used in the bible but is a term often used by Christians as an adjective to describe a state of grace. They mean saved from a fate in hell.

I think you are saying that the concept as used by some Christian groups where they ask you "Are you saved?" and if you answer "I don't know" that means "no" in their opinion. If you answer "yes" then the state is permanent, regardless of your actions. That concept does not exist in the bible in a straightforward manner AFAIK.

However, the Online Etymology Dictionary says saved (adj.) meaning "delivered from damnation," c. 1300.

The word is certainly used in the bible (both old and new testament), but I think you are correct that it is not the centerpiece of a detailed theological discussion. But it is used such as: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

While the meaning of the word "saved" has undoubtedly been expanded in recent centuries, it's basic concept did exist in the bible. It is different than words like rapture which was not popularly known until the 1830's. In Christian eschatology therapture refers to the belief that either before, or simultaneously with, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, believers who have died will be raised and believers who are still alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (the resurrected dead believers) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

As Father Gamble pointed out, "the rapture" as defined above is thought by Roman Catholics to be a Protestant delusion.

1. Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
2. Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
3. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
4. Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
5. Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
6. Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
7. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
8. Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
9. Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
10. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
11. Luke 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
12. Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
13. Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
14. Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
15. Luke 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
16. Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
17. Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
18. John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
19. John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
20. John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
21. Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
23. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
24. Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
25. Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
26. Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
27. Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
28. Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
29. Acts 27:20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
30. Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.
31. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
32. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
33. Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
34. Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
35. Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
36. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
37. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
38. Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
39. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
40. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
41. 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
42. 1 Corinthians 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
43. 1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
44. 2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
45. Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
46. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
47. 1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
48. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
49. 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
50. 1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
51. 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
52. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
53. 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
54. 1 Peter 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
55. 2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
56. Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
57. Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

You know I think if the Cardinals of this forum held an election for the Pope of DT I would cast my ballot for Paco.

Quote: Nareed

Do you not comprehend the contradictions inherent in infinity?

Yes, but only if you have an irrational infinity or an infinity divorced from reason and morality. There is no contradictions in an all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing, all-good being we call God.

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Say the one true god Demeter is all powerful, and the one true god Minerva is all powerful, and the one true god Vash is all powerful. They each have 1/3 of all the power available, but they each have infinite power, because 1/3 of infinity is infinity. If one of them were to have Her powers cut in half, they'd still be infinite and equal to that of the others.

What you seem to be missing is twofold. First Dementer is the creator of all these other gods. Second, if Dementer is all-powerful why create these other all-powerful gods. It seems that Dementer is not all-knowing.

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You can have an infinity of all powerful beings, each having the same and all the power as the others always.

Yes this is a logical contradiction and is again a good reason why there can only be one infinite being.

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If such beings existed, that would be so. but then the one true god Venus would create six hundred septillion all powerful gods and still retain all her power while she shares it with her creations, who all have all the power as well. There is no limit to infinity.

You seem to be conflating infinite power with infinite wisdom, goodness, etc. Just because someone can do something doesn't mean the would or should do it. Reason and morality govern our powers, a lesson we all should learn from God before we blow ourselves up or worse.

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A name is what you call a person. It's not an ontological statement.

However, a noun is what a thing is and what the thing is called. Say the word "chair" is what we call a thing where people sit down, and what the thing itself is.

If we follow these two premises we find that Jehovah is not a person, but a thing.

Aha, you are close to getting it I think. The name of God is not just what you call Him, "Hi, my name is Steve." It is also an ontological statement. You also hit the nail on the head by recognizing that in speaking of God we are not talking about a person, like Minerva or Ra or Dementer, but a spiritual being that is beyond our comprehension who is being itself, who is truly (and not just in name), "I AM".

Still, when I say the word "table" I'm not claiming I'm a table.

Quote: FrGamble

a spiritual being that is beyond our comprehension

This is the key to the whole thing. You first
make up a god, then to avoid having to
explain anything about him, you just claim
he is 'beyond our comprehension'. The
rabble nod approvingly and let you off
the hook. It's just all so darned mysterious.

lol

Quote: Evenbob

This is the key to the whole thing. You first
make up a god, then to avoid having to
explain anything about him, you just claim
he is 'beyond our comprehension'. The
rabble nod approvingly and let you off
the hook. It's just all so darned mysterious.

LOL, there is A LOT we can know about God but we can never hope to know or understand everything. He is always greater. In fact if you think you have completely understood God than you can be sure that is not God.