Should Women be punished for abortion

Quote: Wizard

I give you points for consistency. May I ask your position on infanticide?

I'm going to assume for the purposes of the discussion that "infanticide" refers to a baby that has been born, is living and breathing. And that may not be your definition, based on what's gone before in this thread. I've heard of "monsters" not being given that initial spank (Heinlein was an advocate of it, for example) that would incite the first breath by wise and compassionate doctors, though I don't think modern medicine as the US practices it would allow that any more.

My grandmother had a blue baby who lived a single day; my older brother lived for 3. Both of them could probably now be saved, though my brother's quality of life would be negligible (hydroencephaly). It's possible, even then (50's), that they bowed to the inevitable and did not offer him nutrition, and "let nature take its course". Was that infanticide? My younger brother had a blue baby, born with her veins and arteries reversed in her chest; open-heart surgery at 6 days and 4 months NICU, and she's grown up relatively normally, is now 22. If the technology and expertise (experimental at her birth, and only 2 hospitals in the US did the surgery) had not existed, or my brother could not have afforded (he actually couldn't, took many years to pay for it), would that have been infanticide to let her die? Should she have been forced to linger and fail to thrive? These are not questions I can answer.

Deliberate actions against a healthy baby should have punitive consequences. There is a point when that happens. A lot of the dispute over abortion is when that point is reached. For me, it's when the baby is breathing independently of the mother. However, I do think laws that prosecute someone who kills a baby in the mother's womb while committing violence against the mother are correct to consider that a homicide (multiple if the mother dies). I just don't conflate outside actions against a pregnant woman with a woman's choice whether to bear that child.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I just don't conflate outside actions against a pregnant woman with a woman's choice whether to bear that child.

That is the essential point. Many people want to subjugate the woman to her womb. A few years ago a citizen of India fell ill on an airplane and was treated in Ireland. She was told she was in a Catholic hospital in a Catholic country and therefore the primary patient was her fetus. Life saving treatment for the mother was withheld until the fetus was dead, unfortunately by that time, the mother had deteriorated too much to survive the treatment that was then initiated.

Its the same way with abortions. We consider it a bad part of medicine, relegate it to slums, make available for welfare recipients and often consider it a right mostly exercised by the lower classes.

Recent efforts to alleviate pain of abortion are smokescreens the people behind the legislation don't worry about pain of other diseases, Their only objection is the abortion itself because they equate 'life' with conception rather than quickening or birth or some other event.

duplicate

Quote: beachbumbabs

Nobody is crazy about abortion.
Nobody is happy, or even neutral, about making that decision when they are faced with it.

Actually you would be very incorrect here. There are plenty on the far-left and plenty of radical feminists who do celebrate it. Who think it is the better choice in all cases. There are also those who think there is something "wrong" if the abortion rate falls or the woman chooses to have it and keep it or give it up for adoption.

They are out there, while it is the last thing they want to admit, the reality is they are pro-abortion and not pro "choice."

Quote: AZDuffman

Actually you would be very incorrect here. There are plenty on the far-left and plenty of radical feminists who do celebrate it. Who think it is the better choice in all cases. There are also those who think there is something "wrong" if the abortion rate falls or the woman chooses to have it and keep it or give it up for adoption.

They are out there, while it is the last thing they want to admit, the reality is they are pro-abortion and not pro "choice."

Yes, extremists are out there on every issue
Conservatives always highlight any extremists on the left to try to paint a whole movement as extreme using words like "plenty"
yet
They constantly ignore extremists on the right. (not "plenty")
Typical conservative thinking
If radical feminists represent the left, then the Westboro Baptist church represents the right
Of course that is absurd
I ignore extremists on the right and left, common sense, its logic
Conservatives only ignore extremists on the right, not common sense, illogical

Abortion doctors and the industry as a whole want as many as possible. It's all about the money. Abortion is a huge business that depends on keeping it's customers in the dark about their babies true identity.

Always remember and never forget: FOLLOW THE MONEY.

Quote: Wizard

I don't think anybody understands my point here. Let me rephrase it. For the sake of argument, if we assume that abortion is murder, then shouldn't those complicit in it be held liable for murder?

For those against abortion I would think that would be the logical conclusion
Pro choice- only consider murder once born. If a Woman is involved in murder then punishment is the way to go.
pro life - they constantly refer to murder prior to being born,
To me the logic dictates murder if you are pro life, the woman is involved in the decision therefore punishment should follow
The pro life side wont follow the logic due to political reasons

Pro choice=logical thinking
Pro life=illogical thinking

As you can see in my response to AZ above
Conservative thinking is often illogical

Women are victims of abortionists.

Quote: terapined

To me the logic dictates murder if you are pro life, the woman is involved in the decision therefore punishment should follow
The pro life side wont follow the logic due to political reasons

Pro life=illogical thinking

Thank you. This was the point I was hoping to get to with my original question. Say what you will about Trump, I think his stance yesterday that women who have an abortion should be prosecuted, I assume for murder, is logical thinking, based on the premise that the abortion is a homicide. If anyone on the pro-life side can't handle that, then I think they should reconsider their position.