Two Gods or One

Quote: FrGamble

I'm not going to comment on the stupid musings of a Cardinal with his own thoughts and ideas.

Musings? He represents the Vatican. Cardinal
Francesco Coccopalmerio is 'one of the highest
ranking officials on Church Law.' This is hardly
some renegade low level flunky. He's just saying
what every Gay Catholic already knows, the Church
is bigoted towards Gays right to it's core.

Quote: Evenbob

And where is he again? I'm having a
hard time locating him, his office
seems to be hidden and always closed.

Say a prayer.

Quote: FrGamble

Except for the fact that Jesus was a historical person who is known and loved throughout the world.

You keep saying this, as if this is supposed to mean that we should believe everything supernatural written about him in the bible.

Jesus as a historic person is corroborated outside of the bible.

None of the supernatural events, or eyewitness testamony of them, is corroborated anywhere.

All of what was written about Jesus supernatural feats was not written for decades after his death.

The only evidence of eyewitness accounts were made at that time, the evidence being that the bible said there were eyewitnesses.

Why is it, and how can it be, that the only corroborated evidence about the life of Jesus is non-supernatural in nature?

The chain of logic and reason is flawed, and there is no support that the evidence is accurate and even that it isn't purely fictional.

Quote: FrGamble

Say a prayer.

When I was trying to be a Christian
40 years ago I prayed hundreds
of times, did nothing but waste
time. There's nobody listening.

Quote: FrGamble

As you said earlier energy is a material thing and that rules out noble pantheism, which was your only logical escape from the problem you find yourself in.

Pantheism is as ridiculous as Christianity, and I don't find myself in any problem. It does not tax my intellect to imagine that energy has always existed.

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Material things need causes because they do not cause their own existence and are not necessary beings.

In logic and philosophy we call this a bullshit premise.

In non-technical terms, you're using an unwarranted assumption to prove another unwarranted assumption. then you point at either one indiscriminately to prove the other one. That's circular reasoning.

So, show your proof that all material things require creation, and further that this can only be done by a sentient being, not necessarily your sadistic, bloodthirsty deity,

Quote: Nareed

In non-technical terms, you're using an unwarranted assumption to prove another unwarranted assumption. then you point at either one indiscriminately to prove the other one. That's circular reasoning.

Okay, it's kind of simple. Look around you at all the material things that exist. Did any of these things cause themselves to be? No, they all required a creator or cause? Look at the atoms that make up the material things that exist all around you. Did these atoms create themselves? No, they to require a cause to exist. Do you really think it is an unwarranted assumption to say that material things need a cause? Use your brain and common sense. If things like atoms did just pop into existence why are they not doing so all the time? Have you or anyone you know of seen a table or an elephant just pop into existence on its own? Of course not.

I don't know what your thinking is in regards to denying this premise.

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So, show your proof that all material things require creation, and further that this can only be done by a sentient being,

See above for the need for material things to require creation. Then take a look at creation and its laws and let me know what your observations would tell you about the order of our universe.

I think the word "creation" is an unfortunate and probably meaningless concept.

There's zillions of examples of change going on where someone may declare a beginning. Like the clay pot is declared the "creation". It's not really. It's just the change.

Quote: FrGamble

No, they all required a creator or cause?

This is a textbook example of the package-deal fallacy. Creator and cause are two widely different things.

Most things have a cause. Everything but what's made by humans have NO creator.

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Do you really think it is an unwarranted assumption to say that material things need a cause?

Of course it is. All things are made up of the energy contained in the universe. The energy is the ultimate cause of everything. I can state this with certainty because 1) we know the energy predates the Big bang and 2) we have ZERO evidence of any kind of agent outside the universe meddling in it.

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Use your brain and common sense.

Unfortunately for you, the brain is just like the heart: it never stops working.

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If things like atoms did just pop into existence why are they not doing so all the time?

What do you think goes on constantly in the nuclei of every star? What do you think the virtual particles eating away at black holes are?

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Have you or anyone you know of seen a table or an elephant just pop into existence on its own?

Has anyone ever seen a god?

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Then take a look at creation and its laws and let me know what your observations would tell you about the order of our universe.

There isn't any order to the universe. There is a consistency congruent with natural laws, but no order, no plan and no purpose.

Quote: Nareed

This is a textbook example of the package-deal fallacy. Creator and cause are two widely different things.
Most things have a cause. Everything but what's made by humans have NO creator..
All things are made up of the energy contained in the universe. The energy is the ultimate cause of everything. I can state this with certainty because 1) we know the energy predates the Big bang and 2) we have ZERO evidence of any kind of agent outside the universe meddling in it.
What do you think goes on constantly in the nuclei of every star? What do you think the virtual particles eating away at black holes are?
Has anyone ever seen a god?
There isn't any order to the universe. There is a consistency congruent with natural laws, but no order, no plan and no purpose.

Of course everything you say here is true.
How FrG and the Church get a god out of
all this is the real mystery. There is no plan
to the universe, it's organized chaos. There's
no mind behind it, no creator. It is what it is.

Quote: Nareed

This is a textbook example of the package-deal fallacy. Creator and cause are two widely different things.

Not at all. Cause is the general term and a creator is a type of cause. Everything that is contingent requires a cause. I believe we can get more specific and attribute this cause to an all-powerful, intelligent, eternal and personal creator.

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Most things have a cause.

Why can't you just admit it? Everything has a cause if it has come into being.

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Everything but what's made by humans have NO creator.

I assume you say this because things made by human beings are complex and show intelligence. What about human beings themselves or raccoons or trees or atoms is not complex and does not demonstrate intelligence?

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Of course it is. All things are made up of the energy contained in the universe. The energy is the ultimate cause of everything.

Okay you continue to dance with pantheism.

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I can state this with certainty because 1) we know the energy predates the Big bang

But what predates energy and the Big Bang?

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and 2) we have ZERO evidence of any kind of agent outside the universe meddling in it.

There is plenty of evidence for either some amazing coincidence at the level of every dice in every casino in the world rolling nothing but sevens for the next 1,ooo,ooo years or some type of meddling. Are you willing to roll those dice?

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What do you think goes on constantly in the nuclei of every star? What do you think the virtual particles eating away at black holes are?

I have no idea what goes on constantly in the nuclei of every star or in black holes. Are you saying that energy is created spontaneously without a cause in these situations?

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Has anyone ever seen a god?

Yes, in the person of Jesus Christ.

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There isn't any order to the universe. There is a consistency congruent with natural laws, but no order, no plan and no purpose.

Surely there is order or how could we consistently do science. It is the philosophical underpinning of all science - that the observable universe follows strict fine tuned natural laws. There is also a purpose as evolution seems to show us.