Two Gods or One

Quote: FrGamble

Why can't you just admit it? Everything has a cause if it has come into being.

Padre you have just fallen into the bottomless pit of creationists. If your statement above is true what caused your God to come into being? An older SuperGod?

This line of reasoning of course keeps going giving us an unlimited number of previous Gods.

Has anyone ever seen a god.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes, in the person of Jesus Christ..

Not admissible in any court, ever. The
worst kind of hearsay evidence when
you use urban legends as proof of
anything.

You say god talks to you? Get him to
tell you something about me that only
I know. Won't happen. My sister is a whiz
with a Ouija Board, when she uses it with
her daughter the planchette just flies
around the board. It tells them all kinds
of things, except none of it can be verified.
Like with names and dates and evidence.

It's just my sister and niece making it up as
they go along without knowing it. It's
their subconscious at work. I would imagine
thinking god is talking to you works the
same way. You're talking to yourself but
it doesn't seem that way.

Quote: kenarman

This line of reasoning of course keeps going giving us an unlimited number of previous Gods.

Of course. But everything has been here
forever, so don't worry about it. Waste of
time.

Quote: kenarman

Padre you have just fallen into the bottomless pit of creationists. If your statement above is true what caused your God to come into being? An older SuperGod?

First of all I'm not a creationist in the sense that the term is often used to describe people who think the Earth and our universe is only some thousands of years old or that the creation of everything took place exactly as the Bible depicts.

Secondly, you are making a mistake by not looking closely at my argument. Everything has a cause if it has come into being. The cause of the universe must be a non-contingent being that is truly eternal and has never came into being, but rather is being itself. This being has His existence in itself and does not depend on anything else for its existence. In philosophy this is again a non-contingent being, meaning that it is not dependent on anything else for its existence. The reason that it is necessary using logic to have this first cause or unmoved mover is to avoid the problem of an infinite regress. Think of the old train analogy. If we see cars and these cars are moving then we know for sure that there is an engine somewhere down the tracks that we cannot see. The universe is expanding and it is material, therefore it needs a cause for its existence and movement. Something that caused the Big Bang singularity that modern cosmology posits. Nothing causes an eternal all-powerful spiritual intelligent being to exist, its reason for being is contained in itself.

Quote: Evenbob

Of course. But everything has been here
forever, so don't worry about it. Waste of
time.

What evidence do you have to say that everything has been here forever and how do you avoid then the problem of an infinite regress.


Please, please know the danger inherent in Oujia boards. It is my sincere hope and prayer that your sister is indeed moving the little thing around herself but these types of things are always very dangerous in that they open you up to demonic forces. I always say the best thing you can hope happens when you mess with physics, fortune tellers, and stuff like that is you just get scammed. The worst thing that can happen is unspeakable.

Quote: FrGamble

Not at all. Cause is the general term and a creator is a type of cause. Everything that is contingent requires a cause. I believe we can get more specific and attribute this cause to an all-powerful, intelligent, eternal and personal creator.

Funny how the best "proof"for a god you can come up with is an arbitrary argument by analogy.

Quote:

I assume you say this because things made by human beings are complex and show intelligence. What about human beings themselves or raccoons or trees or atoms is not complex and does not demonstrate intelligence?

I suppose the church can no longer deny the evidence of evolution and the fact the Earth is billions of years old, but that doesn't mean you've accepted evolution as fact. Otherwise you wouldn't be appealing to design as patently as a Young Earth Creationist would do.

If you want to believe in intellectually bankrupt ideas, that's your right. If you want to impose your outdated, and also bankrupt, moral code, complete with mandatory belief in a non-existent being, then you'd best come up with a better argument. Not a good argument, as that would be impossible.

You think the design of living beings shows intelligence? If Ford were to design cars as shoddily as living beings, it would be out of business within a year

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Okay you continue to dance with pantheism.

It's so sad you must reduce everything to terms of religion.

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But what predates energy and the Big Bang?

Nothing that we know of. But if you find any evidence for something, I'd be glad to take it from you and show it to someone who would develop a theory to explain it, or at least try, rather than labeling it "god" arbitrarily and lord it over others with it.

Padre yourtwo statement are not self-evident. I do not agree that your second statement is a logical extension of the first.

"Everything has a cause if it has come into being. The cause of the universe must be a non-contingent being that is truly eternal and has never came into being, but rather is being itself."

The second statement can just as easily, and more likely, describe energy and not an omnipotent God. Especially since we have a formulae that describes the relationship between energy and mass.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

Explaination of a non-contingent universe that may or may not have already been here forever, which does not violate our current understanding of thermodynamic laws.

Something from nothing, energy and gravity springing forth without cause.

Should I add that until someone presents evidence that proves that wrong, we should choose to believe it?

Quote: FrGamble

Please, please know the danger inherent in Oujia boards.

Whatever, voodoo nonsense. You totally ignored
the point. Have the god you talk to tell you something
about me that only I know. For an all knowing all
seeing god, that should be a snap. It would definitely
get my attention.

Quote: FrGamble

Nothing causes an eternal all-powerful spiritual intelligent being to exist, its reason for being is contained in itself.

You might as well be talking about why
Superman got all his powers when he
came to earth. It makes as much sense
as a self contained being, which makes
no sense at all.