Two Gods or One

Quote: FrGamble

I can tell you that personally I know and feel the love

You feel something, anyway. I'm afraid
Jesus never knew you so you're just
kidding yourself. How special that
would make you, though, if he was
the son of a god and he loved you.
Is that what this is all about, a low
self esteem issue? Isn't that something
all Xtions have in common? At least
Jesus loves them because nobody
else does?

Quote:

I could repeat the philosophical, metaphysical, and logical arguments again but you continue to ignore them.. Trust me God is very real.

I ignore them because they aren't cogent
to the argument. Trust me, he isn't, and
there's no evidence to make me wrong.

Quote: rxwine

Raise the dead. I'll show up to watch.

John 14-12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do..

This is a tricky one, they have a way of
weaseling out if it, though. It's pretty
lame, Jesus never did any of
the things they claimed he did. No water
walking, dead raising, wine and fishies
making. It was Paul and the followers
of Paul that beefed up Jesus resume.
He was really dull and boring till his
press agents took over.

Quote: FrGamble

Very cogent rhetorical answer. But logically this energy also has a cause.

What's your evidence that the energy composing the Universe was created?

Your argument pretty much is that there is a god because all things require creation, except god, and therefore the universe was created and therefore god exists because someone needed to create the universe, which proves god is real because the universe exists and someone had to create it, and how come you're bothered by infinite regress but not by circular reasoning?

Quote:

Again only if you think tyranny is instructions for healthy and happy living.

Oh, did Christians change their whole belief system and moral code overnight?

You know, if it was so good, they wouldn't have to resort to force to get people to adopt it.

Quote: Nareed

Your argument pretty much is that there is a god because all things require creation, except god, and therefore the universe was created and therefore god exists because someone needed to create the universe, which proves god is real because the universe exists and someone had to create it, and how come you're bothered by infinite regress but not by circular reasoning?

There is also no chain of evidence or logic to link this creator entity with any of the gods that anybody has ever believed in.

a summation of the waves francis is causing:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/confusing-even-the-elect-the-troubling-statements-of-pope-francis

this thing on bishops and sex abuse:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36451954

it still doesn't address the church's position that they are above the law.

Quote: Nareed

What's your evidence that the energy composing the Universe was created?

Your argument pretty much is that there is a god because all things require creation, except god, and therefore the universe was created and therefore god exists because someone needed to create the universe, which proves god is real because the universe exists and someone had to create it, and how come you're bothered by infinite regress but not by circular reasoning?

As you said earlier energy is a material thing and that rules out noble pantheism, which was your only logical escape from the problem you find yourself in. I do agree with you however that energy is a material thing and therefore created. Material things need causes because they do not cause their own existence and are not necessary beings.

The argument is quite linear. Everything that begins to exist was created. The universe began to exist. Therefore the universe has a creator. The first premise is common knowledge that our constant experience tells us is true. Something cannot come from nothing. The second is derived from the common understanding of modern cosmology. PLEASE NOTE I am not saying that the BBT proves the universe began from nothing. I am only saying that the science we have today points back to the a singular moment when all matter and energy and space and time were compressed into an infinitely small point smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. (by the way it is worth marveling for a moment that all the energy and mass of Jupiter, our Earth, the Sun and every other star we can see and cannot see being compressed into such a space, it boggles the mind and excites the imagination) Anyway, that is as far as science can go. Metaphysics and philosophy take over and ask the question where did this "dot" that began all things come from? It is material and did not create itself, therefore it has a creator - the unmistakable conclusion. The characteristics of this creator are easy to come by again using logic and common sense. What is circular about this reasoning?

Quote: Dalex64

There is also no chain of evidence or logic to link this creator entity with any of the gods that anybody has ever believed in.

I believe the person of Jesus Christ is the evidence and logical link to this creator as our Heavenly Father.

Quote: rxwine

You always claim your god is real, but nothing to show.

Well it looks like we are at an impasse. Both our ideologies seem to be unable to show themselves to be real to the other person. I can't show you that Christianity is real over the internet and you cannot show me that your idea of thinking there is no God to be true. We both desire evidence and something to show. I can show you my life and the impact Christ has made to me and billions of other people but I understand that doesn't carry any weight with you because you have no personal experience of it and can easily say I and so many others are just crazy and imagining it all because we have low self-esteem or some other reason. You cannot show any evidence for atheism, because well there is none and you use this somehow to conclude that there is obviously 100% not a God. I'm not sure where we go from here if you are not willing to attempt at all to open your heart and mind to God.

Quote: FrGamble

I believe the person of Jesus Christ is the evidence and logical link to this creator as our Heavenly Father.

That's like saying Rudolph the red nosed
reindeer is the evidence and logical link
to Santa.

Quote: FrGamble

You cannot show any evidence for atheism,

You always always do this, why. How
do you show Santa or the E Bunny
don't exist. I can say god doesn't
exist because I see no evidence for
a god. No proof, no evidence, no
nothing. Just the flimsiest of circumstantial
conjecture. Someone says god talks
to them, or some old book has lots
of unlikely claims and no evidence.
We're supposed throw reason to the wind
and believe in a god because lots of
other people do? That's just silly in an
age science.