The Holy Trinity

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April 19th, 2017 at 1:47:02 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Evenbob
But it is the only fact, that's why the
2500 offshoots argue about all the
details of the rest of it. They aren't
facts at all.


Nobody is arguing about the Resurrection. Why would a great world religion start over a guy who was crucified? Are you sure that is the only fact, maybe there is something more.




Quote:
And they about yours. The only religion
people are interested in is the one they
were indoctrinated with since they were
born.


I understand you would like to believe that but it is not true. People change their religion all the time and come to faith in God all the time.

Quote:
An atheist can see them all without emotion
or conflict, look at the advantage that gives
him.


Why can't a Catholic or a Buddhist see all religions with emotion or conflict? I would think an atheist is fundamentally at a disadvantage in looking at any religion because they don't believe in God. That is the foundation of every religion. In many ways they are blind until they open their eyes and minds to the fundamental truth of God's existence.



Quote:
No. Just realize they come from us and
not from some god or place outside of
us.


So just to clarify. Fairness and justice are concepts that do not come from the universe but from somewhere else and we should not ignore them. I think we can find a lot of common ground on this particular issue.



Quote:
What questions, name one. Just one.


Should I do what I know what is right? Do my actions mean anything? Do they have value? Will I live forever? Do human beings have inherent value and dignity to be respected always? Is there meaning and purpose to my life? Is there right and wrong? Can I be forgiven? Is forgiveness important?
April 19th, 2017 at 4:24:39 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10153
Quote: FrGamble
Why would a great world religion start over a guy who was crucified?


Why not, religions have started over much
less. What this religion had going for it is,
it was adopted by the most
powerful empire on earth. Without the
Romans, it never would have been more
than a regional curiosity.

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I would think an atheist is fundamentally at a disadvantage in looking at any religion because they don't believe in God.



Hinduism and Buddhism have no god.
No central god figure.

Quote:
Fairness and justice are concepts that do not come from the universe but from somewhere else


They come from us and nowhere else. Moses
came down from the mountain with suggestions
he wrote himself, god had nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Do my actions mean anything? Do they have value? Will I live forever? Do human beings have inherent value and dignity to be respected always? Is there meaning and purpose to my life? Is there right and wrong? Can I be forgiven? Is forgiveness important?


These might define your life, but they
don't define everybody's by a long shot.
Many people on earth could care less.
Their questions are, where is my next
meal coming from, where will I sleep
tonight, how will I stay alive into the
future. These were the questions man
asked for eons. The question you ask
only happen when all your other needs
are taken care of and you can think about
something other than survival.

They are luxury questions, they aren't important
to survival.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 19th, 2017 at 6:12:34 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Evenbob
What this religion had going for it is,
it was adopted by the most
powerful empire on earth. Without the
Romans, it never would have been more
than a regional curiosity.


You need to learn your history. For over 300 years the same Roman Empire that had Jesus crucified persecuted the growing Church. They killed the Apostles and the disciples and anyone who followed Jesus. The fact that this fledgling group claiming unreservedly and unwaveringly that Christ was risen was not destroyed is clear evidence that it is true and guided by the Holy Spirit.



Quote:
They come from us and nowhere else. Moses
came down from the mountain with suggestions
he wrote himself, god had nothing to do with it.


My point is if the idea is not found in the universe than how could we come up with it? I think we can have a very fruitful conversation about this.



Quote:
They are luxury questions, they aren't important
to survival.


See how long you or anyone would last, especially in difficult situations if they didn't ask if their life had any meaning or purpose? If their feeling to do what is right even when it is easier to do what is wrong should be listened to?
April 19th, 2017 at 6:59:32 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10153
Quote: FrGamble
clear evidence that it is true and guided by the Holy Spirit.


Horse pucky. The religion owes it success to
one man, Constantine. Not to some supernatural
spirit.

Quote:
My point is if the idea is not found in the universe than how could we come up with it?


Slowly. Morals and manners had to be invented
for tribes to get along with one another. They
had to have more in common and uniting
under a single religion was a common sense
thing to do. Obey the rules and you could
remain a member of the community. God had
nothing to do with it.

Quote:
See how long you or anyone would last, especially in difficult situations if they didn't ask if their life had any meaning or purpose?


Religion and morals are a luxury enjoyed by
people who have spare time on their hands.
When their whole day isn't spent protecting
themselves feom predators and finding food.
It's an evolutionary thing developed so we
could get along together better.

A hundred years ago in a small town, if you
had a local business and didn't go to church
every Sunday, you would not be in business
long. People didn't trust you, and it had
nothing to do with god. It was tribal thing,
you were an outsider. Religion acts more
like glue in a society, holding things together.
Saving souls has nothing to do with anything.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 20th, 2017 at 10:27:16 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Evenbob
Horse pucky. The religion owes it success to
one man, Constantine. Not to some supernatural
spirit.


Again I encourage you to read and think about history. How did the religion survive and grow before Constantine. How did it expand and grow throughout the world so that it is truly universal?



Quote:
Slowly. Morals and manners had to be invented
for tribes to get along with one another. They
had to have more in common and uniting
under a single religion was a common sense
thing to do. Obey the rules and you could
remain a member of the community. God had
nothing to do with it.


What I am curious of is that you and I both see it as a supernatural development. By this I mean that it originated from something outside of nature. We have created something that is above and beyond nature and it serves us well, in fact it is essential for our survival and development as humans. While I hold its ultimate origin in us being made in the image and likeness of God and with a morality placed in our hearts you stop at just a human origin. Either way it is supernatural and exciting to think about.
April 20th, 2017 at 12:08:53 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10153
Quote: FrGamble
Again I encourage you to read


Where do you think I get info from, thin air?
This is just a small part of Constantine's
influence on the Church.

"The accession of Constantine was a turning point for early Christianity. After his victory, Constantine took over the role of patron of the Christian faith. He supported the Church financially, had an extraordinary number of basilicas built, granted privileges (e.g., exemption from certain taxes) to clergy, promoted Christians to high-ranking offices, returned property confiscated during the Great Persecution of Diocletian, and endowed the church with land and other wealth. Between 324 and 330, Constantine built a new imperial capital at Byzantium on the Bosporos, which would be named Constantinople for him. Unlike "old" Rome, the city began to employ overtly Christian architecture, contained churches within the city walls and had no pre-existing temples from other religions."

Not to mention how he changed old Christianity
into the modern version we see now. Without
his power, money, and guidance, the religion
would have eventually faded away.

What I am curious of is that you and I both see it as a supernatural development. By this I mean that it originated from something outside of nature.

It's not supernatural in even the tiniest part.
That's like saying the invention of the wheel
was a supernatural event. Morality evolved
out of necessity to our species, Darwin first
suggested it in 1874. Since then a huge amount
of research has been done on this. Morality
is a brain function of a higher species. Chimps
can be taught many things and mimic humans
in certain things. One thing they cannot be
taught is the concept of fairness, their brains
are just too small.

As our brains got bigger as we evolved, so
did our ability and grasp higher concepts.
These concepts originate with us, they don't
seep in from some mysterious supernatural
place. They evolve from necessity. It never
ceases to amaze me how religious people
always turn to god as the first answer to
every question, when it eventually turns out
he's the answer to no questions when science
gets involved.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 20th, 2017 at 2:27:19 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Evenbob
Without
his power, money, and guidance, the religion
would have eventually faded away.


I'm curious as to why you say this. It is obviously false as before Constantine and during awful persecutions the Church continued to grow and spread. Also in far reaches of the world way outside of the influence of the Roman Empire the Church grew as well.


Quote:
It's not supernatural in even the tiniest part.
That's like saying the invention of the wheel
was a supernatural event.


Circles exist in nature and the material to make something like the wheel exist. When we are talking about morality we are talking about something entirely not found in nature and only in the human mind or soul. It is not material but comes into being just through our thought. No, I think you are wrong - it is supernatural.

Quote:
Morality evolved
out of necessity to our species,


Or was it our species that necessarily evolved out of our morality. We have both stated that morality was and is necessary for our survival. You can't have the human person, our civilization, our progress without morality. In many ways what makes us human is our morality.


Quote:
Morality
is a brain function of a higher species. Chimps
can be taught many things and mimic humans
in certain things. One thing they cannot be
taught is the concept of fairness, their brains
are just too small.


How did you put it? Horse puckey, I think? This is pure BS. You can't tell me that you actually think the only reason chimps don't have a morality like ours is because of their brain size? I wonder do animals with bigger brains than ours have an even more advanced concept of fairness than we do? Morality is obviously not just about chemicals in our brains. All over the world and throughout history humans share a remarkably similar morality. We know it is not just some personal decision based on what one individual is thinking. Morality is bigger, deeper, and more supernatural than that.

Quote:
It never
ceases to amaze me how religious people
always turn to god as the first answer to
every question, when it eventually turns out
he's the answer to no questions when science
gets involved.


It never ceases to amaze me how non-religious people always run from God as an answer to any question.
April 20th, 2017 at 3:27:46 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 105
Posts: 10153
Quote: FrGamble
I'm curious as to why you say this.


I say it because it's likely. I don't see why
you're so dead set against it. In your world
god put Constantine at the right place at
the right time. Why is that bad. He was
the patron, he was the moneybags that
drew it into the worldwide spotlight.

My friend started an energy bar business
in the 80's. It was quite a success regionally.
An subsidiary of Nabisco bought him out
for $3mil in the 90's and now his products
are sold worldwide. Without the deep
pockets of a big corp, he'd still be regional.
Same with your religion and Constantine.
He essentially took it over, revitalized it,
streamlined it, and threw a ton of money
at getting it set up. It took off from there.


Quote:
It is not material but comes into being just through our thought. No, I think you are wrong - it is supernatural.


There is nothing supernatural about our
thoughts or morality. I don't understand
this conversation, why would you ever
make the connection. Because I see it's
better for me not to kill my neighbor or
steal his car is hardly a supernatural
revelation. It's a function of our large
brain to reason things out logically.

Quote:
Or was it our species that necessarily evolved out of our morality.


The chicken came first, and much later the
egg. The ability to grow eggs evolved with
the primitive chicken. Just like morality evolved
with man.

Quote:
You can't tell me that you actually think the only reason chimps don't have a morality like ours is because of their brain size?


I was just reading about it. Chimps and humans
are compared because we have so much DNA
in common. The scientists say our bigger brains,
three times bigger than a chimps, account for
our high morality. Argue with them about it.
The varieties of humans that came before us
had smaller brains, and smaller grasps on
morality as well.

Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how non-religious people always run from God as an answer to any question.


We're interested in the real answers, not
ones that fit in with our world view. That
means always putting god at the very
bottom of any list of answers. He has yet
to be needed for the solution of any problem,
but there's always hope.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
April 20th, 2017 at 3:48:06 PM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 301
Posts: 9977
Quote: FrGamble
When we are talking about morality we are talking about something entirely not found in nature and only in the human mind or soul. It is not material but comes into being just through our thought. No, I think you are wrong - it is supernatural.


Now just wait an effing minute.

"Nature" consists of the entire universe. When considering the size of it and the time it's existed, compared to how much we know of it and the time we've existed, to say "X does not happen in nature," takes a lot of chutzpa. Unless you're talking about things that our understanding of natural laws indicate cannot happen in nature.

Also, you may have noticed there is a single species of humanity. In the past there were two(*), however. Us and the Neanderthals. Because they vanished before civilization or writing, we know very little about them. But we can assume they had a moral code same as other humans did. We can't say for certain they did, but that's the way to bet. Look at the archeological evidence and tell me they didn't.


(*) Further back in time, there may have been more than two. Several of our ancestors were rather close to us in basic tool-making and tool-using qualities.
If Trump where half as smart as he thinks he is, he'd be twice as smart as he really is.
April 21st, 2017 at 12:11:32 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 44
Posts: 4841
Quote: Evenbob
I say it because it's likely. I don't see why
you're so dead set against it. In your world
god put Constantine at the right place at
the right time. Why is that bad. He was
the patron, he was the moneybags that
drew it into the worldwide spotlight.

My friend started an energy bar business
in the 80's. It was quite a success regionally.
An subsidiary of Nabisco bought him out
for $3mil in the 90's and now his products
are sold worldwide. Without the deep
pockets of a big corp, he'd still be regional.
Same with your religion and Constantine.
He essentially took it over, revitalized it,
streamlined it, and threw a ton of money
at getting it set up. It took off from there.


I can see God's Providence in the role of Constantine in Church History, but I also see it as the beginning of some of the problems we still suffer from in the Church today. The faith of Jesus Christ is one of servant leadership and humble loving sacrifice. Power, fame, and wealth can be hard to balance with the things that Jesus taught. It is not impossible and there are lots of examples of saintly success, but original sin being what it is we are especially weak in the temptations for pleasure and once people taste this kind of stuff it is hard to let it go when needed.




Quote:
There is nothing supernatural about our
thoughts or morality. I don't understand
this conversation, why would you ever
make the connection. Because I see it's
better for me not to kill my neighbor or
steal his car is hardly a supernatural
revelation. It's a function of our large
brain to reason things out logically.


Based on strict logic there are lots of things that would go against our human morality. If I am stronger than my neighbor why shouldn't I steal his car and if he gives me a hard time about it why shouldn't I kill him? It sounds strange even to write these questions so ingrained is our morality but if ultimately there are no consequences and there is something I want and I have the ability to take it, why not? We see this all the time in nature. We somehow rise above our nature and reject this animalistic and "natural" behavior because we are literally and figurative called to be supernatural (above nature).



Quote:
We're interested in the real answers, not
ones that fit in with our world view. That
means always putting god at the very
bottom of any list of answers. He has yet
to be needed for the solution of any problem,
but there's always hope.


If you were really interested in real answers you would not put God at the very bottom of the list, nor would you put God at the very top of the list. You would be open to whatever answer the evidence pointed to.
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