The Holy Trinity
April 19th, 2017 at 1:47:02 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Nobody is arguing about the Resurrection. Why would a great world religion start over a guy who was crucified? Are you sure that is the only fact, maybe there is something more.
I understand you would like to believe that but it is not true. People change their religion all the time and come to faith in God all the time.
Why can't a Catholic or a Buddhist see all religions with emotion or conflict? I would think an atheist is fundamentally at a disadvantage in looking at any religion because they don't believe in God. That is the foundation of every religion. In many ways they are blind until they open their eyes and minds to the fundamental truth of God's existence.
So just to clarify. Fairness and justice are concepts that do not come from the universe but from somewhere else and we should not ignore them. I think we can find a lot of common ground on this particular issue.
Should I do what I know what is right? Do my actions mean anything? Do they have value? Will I live forever? Do human beings have inherent value and dignity to be respected always? Is there meaning and purpose to my life? Is there right and wrong? Can I be forgiven? Is forgiveness important? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
April 19th, 2017 at 4:24:39 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Why not, religions have started over much less. What this religion had going for it is, it was adopted by the most powerful empire on earth. Without the Romans, it never would have been more than a regional curiosity.
Hinduism and Buddhism have no god. No central god figure.
They come from us and nowhere else. Moses came down from the mountain with suggestions he wrote himself, god had nothing to do with it.
These might define your life, but they don't define everybody's by a long shot. Many people on earth could care less. Their questions are, where is my next meal coming from, where will I sleep tonight, how will I stay alive into the future. These were the questions man asked for eons. The question you ask only happen when all your other needs are taken care of and you can think about something other than survival. They are luxury questions, they aren't important to survival. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
April 19th, 2017 at 6:12:34 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
You need to learn your history. For over 300 years the same Roman Empire that had Jesus crucified persecuted the growing Church. They killed the Apostles and the disciples and anyone who followed Jesus. The fact that this fledgling group claiming unreservedly and unwaveringly that Christ was risen was not destroyed is clear evidence that it is true and guided by the Holy Spirit.
My point is if the idea is not found in the universe than how could we come up with it? I think we can have a very fruitful conversation about this.
See how long you or anyone would last, especially in difficult situations if they didn't ask if their life had any meaning or purpose? If their feeling to do what is right even when it is easier to do what is wrong should be listened to? “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
April 19th, 2017 at 6:59:32 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Horse pucky. The religion owes it success to one man, Constantine. Not to some supernatural spirit.
Slowly. Morals and manners had to be invented for tribes to get along with one another. They had to have more in common and uniting under a single religion was a common sense thing to do. Obey the rules and you could remain a member of the community. God had nothing to do with it.
Religion and morals are a luxury enjoyed by people who have spare time on their hands. When their whole day isn't spent protecting themselves feom predators and finding food. It's an evolutionary thing developed so we could get along together better. A hundred years ago in a small town, if you had a local business and didn't go to church every Sunday, you would not be in business long. People didn't trust you, and it had nothing to do with god. It was tribal thing, you were an outsider. Religion acts more like glue in a society, holding things together. Saving souls has nothing to do with anything. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
April 20th, 2017 at 10:27:16 AM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
Again I encourage you to read and think about history. How did the religion survive and grow before Constantine. How did it expand and grow throughout the world so that it is truly universal?
What I am curious of is that you and I both see it as a supernatural development. By this I mean that it originated from something outside of nature. We have created something that is above and beyond nature and it serves us well, in fact it is essential for our survival and development as humans. While I hold its ultimate origin in us being made in the image and likeness of God and with a morality placed in our hearts you stop at just a human origin. Either way it is supernatural and exciting to think about. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
April 20th, 2017 at 12:08:53 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
Where do you think I get info from, thin air? This is just a small part of Constantine's influence on the Church. "The accession of Constantine was a turning point for early Christianity. After his victory, Constantine took over the role of patron of the Christian faith. He supported the Church financially, had an extraordinary number of basilicas built, granted privileges (e.g., exemption from certain taxes) to clergy, promoted Christians to high-ranking offices, returned property confiscated during the Great Persecution of Diocletian, and endowed the church with land and other wealth. Between 324 and 330, Constantine built a new imperial capital at Byzantium on the Bosporos, which would be named Constantinople for him. Unlike "old" Rome, the city began to employ overtly Christian architecture, contained churches within the city walls and had no pre-existing temples from other religions." Not to mention how he changed old Christianity into the modern version we see now. Without his power, money, and guidance, the religion would have eventually faded away. It's not supernatural in even the tiniest part. That's like saying the invention of the wheel was a supernatural event. Morality evolved out of necessity to our species, Darwin first suggested it in 1874. Since then a huge amount of research has been done on this. Morality is a brain function of a higher species. Chimps can be taught many things and mimic humans in certain things. One thing they cannot be taught is the concept of fairness, their brains are just too small. As our brains got bigger as we evolved, so did our ability and grasp higher concepts. These concepts originate with us, they don't seep in from some mysterious supernatural place. They evolve from necessity. It never ceases to amaze me how religious people always turn to god as the first answer to every question, when it eventually turns out he's the answer to no questions when science gets involved. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
April 20th, 2017 at 2:27:19 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I'm curious as to why you say this. It is obviously false as before Constantine and during awful persecutions the Church continued to grow and spread. Also in far reaches of the world way outside of the influence of the Roman Empire the Church grew as well.
Circles exist in nature and the material to make something like the wheel exist. When we are talking about morality we are talking about something entirely not found in nature and only in the human mind or soul. It is not material but comes into being just through our thought. No, I think you are wrong - it is supernatural.
Or was it our species that necessarily evolved out of our morality. We have both stated that morality was and is necessary for our survival. You can't have the human person, our civilization, our progress without morality. In many ways what makes us human is our morality.
How did you put it? Horse puckey, I think? This is pure BS. You can't tell me that you actually think the only reason chimps don't have a morality like ours is because of their brain size? I wonder do animals with bigger brains than ours have an even more advanced concept of fairness than we do? Morality is obviously not just about chemicals in our brains. All over the world and throughout history humans share a remarkably similar morality. We know it is not just some personal decision based on what one individual is thinking. Morality is bigger, deeper, and more supernatural than that.
It never ceases to amaze me how non-religious people always run from God as an answer to any question. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |
April 20th, 2017 at 3:27:46 PM permalink | |
Evenbob Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 146 Posts: 25010 |
I say it because it's likely. I don't see why you're so dead set against it. In your world god put Constantine at the right place at the right time. Why is that bad. He was the patron, he was the moneybags that drew it into the worldwide spotlight. My friend started an energy bar business in the 80's. It was quite a success regionally. An subsidiary of Nabisco bought him out for $3mil in the 90's and now his products are sold worldwide. Without the deep pockets of a big corp, he'd still be regional. Same with your religion and Constantine. He essentially took it over, revitalized it, streamlined it, and threw a ton of money at getting it set up. It took off from there.
There is nothing supernatural about our thoughts or morality. I don't understand this conversation, why would you ever make the connection. Because I see it's better for me not to kill my neighbor or steal his car is hardly a supernatural revelation. It's a function of our large brain to reason things out logically.
The chicken came first, and much later the egg. The ability to grow eggs evolved with the primitive chicken. Just like morality evolved with man.
I was just reading about it. Chimps and humans are compared because we have so much DNA in common. The scientists say our bigger brains, three times bigger than a chimps, account for our high morality. Argue with them about it. The varieties of humans that came before us had smaller brains, and smaller grasps on morality as well.
We're interested in the real answers, not ones that fit in with our world view. That means always putting god at the very bottom of any list of answers. He has yet to be needed for the solution of any problem, but there's always hope. If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose. |
April 20th, 2017 at 3:48:06 PM permalink | |
Nareed Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 346 Posts: 12545 |
Now just wait an effing minute. "Nature" consists of the entire universe. When considering the size of it and the time it's existed, compared to how much we know of it and the time we've existed, to say "X does not happen in nature," takes a lot of chutzpa. Unless you're talking about things that our understanding of natural laws indicate cannot happen in nature. Also, you may have noticed there is a single species of humanity. In the past there were two(*), however. Us and the Neanderthals. Because they vanished before civilization or writing, we know very little about them. But we can assume they had a moral code same as other humans did. We can't say for certain they did, but that's the way to bet. Look at the archeological evidence and tell me they didn't. (*) Further back in time, there may have been more than two. Several of our ancestors were rather close to us in basic tool-making and tool-using qualities. Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER |
April 21st, 2017 at 12:11:32 PM permalink | |
FrGamble Member since: Oct 24, 2012 Threads: 67 Posts: 7596 |
I can see God's Providence in the role of Constantine in Church History, but I also see it as the beginning of some of the problems we still suffer from in the Church today. The faith of Jesus Christ is one of servant leadership and humble loving sacrifice. Power, fame, and wealth can be hard to balance with the things that Jesus taught. It is not impossible and there are lots of examples of saintly success, but original sin being what it is we are especially weak in the temptations for pleasure and once people taste this kind of stuff it is hard to let it go when needed.
Based on strict logic there are lots of things that would go against our human morality. If I am stronger than my neighbor why shouldn't I steal his car and if he gives me a hard time about it why shouldn't I kill him? It sounds strange even to write these questions so ingrained is our morality but if ultimately there are no consequences and there is something I want and I have the ability to take it, why not? We see this all the time in nature. We somehow rise above our nature and reject this animalistic and "natural" behavior because we are literally and figurative called to be supernatural (above nature).
If you were really interested in real answers you would not put God at the very bottom of the list, nor would you put God at the very top of the list. You would be open to whatever answer the evidence pointed to. “It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” ( |