First Principles

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January 11th, 2021 at 3:49:24 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 24
Posts: 5425
Quote: FrGamble
....Why do you think a good father would not say, "I love you and always will love you, but don't break the rules or their will be consequences."? Is that controlling or unhealthy. What if the father wants their children to study hard, nor stay up too late, and do their chores. Is that unreasonable or unloving?
And if the child doesn't do their chores, should the father take a stick to them?
"If everything seems under control, your not going fast enough" Mario Andretti
January 14th, 2021 at 9:08:31 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 139
Posts: 22660
James Bakker <jbakkr11@gmail.com>
Mon, Jan 11, 7:01 PM (3 days ago)
to me

Quote: FrGamble
N You again are wrong or are greatly exaggerating and twisting history with your comments about thousands of years of armies. Where do you get such ridiculous stuff?


From history, it's written about
everywhere.

"The practice of raping the women of a conquered group has remained a feature of warfare and conquest from the second millennium B.C. to the present. It is a social practice which, like the torture of prisoners, has been resistant to "progress," to humanitarian reforms, and to sophisticated moral and ethical considerations. I suggest this is the case because it is a practice built into and essential to the structure of patriarchal institutions and inseparable from them." Historian Gerda Lerner

It's even in the Bible:

"For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women taken..." Zechariah 14:2

Quote:
Why don't you answer the question you posed; is it right for armies to rape and plunder?


Right for us today? No. Right 1000
years ago? If you lived in those times
you never would have considered
the question. It was expected common
practice that wasn't considered wrong.
It's why Jesus never condemned slavery and
called for it's end. It was common
practice and not looked at as wrong.

Quote:
Right and wrong are not flowing concepts and don't change. Our view of them (a very different thing) or our perception on them (again very different question)


That's all right and wrong is, perception.
It's not a universal constant, like gravity.
It's not waiting to pop out at you from
behind a bush. We decide what's right
and wrong, the universe doesn't decide
it for us. The universe has no opinion.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 15th, 2021 at 3:51:56 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 66
Posts: 7541
Quote: Evenbob
Right for us today? No. Right 1000
years ago? If you lived in those times
you never would have considered
the question. It was expected common
practice that wasn't considered wrong.


I understand why you won't really answer the question.
Your measure for determining if something is good is, "it was expected common practice that wasn't considered wrong."
Do you at least feel a little uncomfortable with that low bar? Are you a little embarrassed at how low your standards are? Are you worried that what you think is wrong today might not be considered wrong soon?
You seem to look at morality as fashion trends.



Quote:
That's all right and wrong is, perception.
It's not a universal constant, like gravity.


Right and wrong are universal constants stronger than some weak force like gravity.
You can do absolutely nothing to make racial slavery or rape right and moral goods. They are evil and wrong and have always and will always be. You cannot even imagine a world where things like torture and abuse are truly right and good. You can talk about perception all you want, but perception is you just wanting to delude yourself and pretend you really have a say in these things. You strike me as a kid wishing really hard that the apple you are holding will float upwards against gravity. You can't do it, you have not the power, like it or not you are bound to moral laws of right and wrong that come from beyond any of us and are written on your very heart.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 15th, 2021 at 9:47:27 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 139
Posts: 22660
Quote: FrGamble
IAre you a little embarrassed at how low your standards are?


Aren't you embarrassed that I
have the same moral code
as Jesus? That slavery 2000
years ago was not a wrong
concept?

"Nowhere in the New Testament will you find a condemnation of slavery, nor an updating of the Mosaic slave code. Instead you have Ephesians 6 where slaves are told to be “obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling”; and Philemon, where Paul sends back a runaway slave to his Christian owner. Jesus does not raise a word against the practice."

Why would Jesus speak against
it. He looked at slavery as an
integral part of his society, as
did everyone else. Without
slaves the society would have
collapsed.

Quote:
Right and wrong are universal constants


Where are they, then, how do you
find them outside of public opinion.
How do you prove their existence.

universal constant definition:
a physical constant of wide application and frequent occurrence in physical formulas; the speed of light, the electronic charge, etc., are universal constants.

Right and wrong are opinions drawn
from society in the times they live in.
It's not a constant at all, it's an ever
moving target that changes all the
time. You want it to be written in
stone, for your religion to exist you
must convince your followers that
it IS written in stone. Otherwise
you have no power over them at
all, your just spewing the the Church's
opinion and not facts.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
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