First Principles

January 11th, 2021 at 3:49:24 PM permalink
petroglyph
Member since: Aug 3, 2014
Threads: 25
Posts: 6227
Quote: FrGamble
....Why do you think a good father would not say, "I love you and always will love you, but don't break the rules or their will be consequences."? Is that controlling or unhealthy. What if the father wants their children to study hard, nor stay up too late, and do their chores. Is that unreasonable or unloving?
And if the child doesn't do their chores, should the father take a stick to them?
The last official act of any government is to loot the treasury. GW
January 14th, 2021 at 9:08:31 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
James Bakker <jbakkr11@gmail.com>
Mon, Jan 11, 7:01 PM (3 days ago)
to me

Quote: FrGamble
N You again are wrong or are greatly exaggerating and twisting history with your comments about thousands of years of armies. Where do you get such ridiculous stuff?


From history, it's written about
everywhere.

"The practice of raping the women of a conquered group has remained a feature of warfare and conquest from the second millennium B.C. to the present. It is a social practice which, like the torture of prisoners, has been resistant to "progress," to humanitarian reforms, and to sophisticated moral and ethical considerations. I suggest this is the case because it is a practice built into and essential to the structure of patriarchal institutions and inseparable from them." Historian Gerda Lerner

It's even in the Bible:

"For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women taken..." Zechariah 14:2

Quote:
Why don't you answer the question you posed; is it right for armies to rape and plunder?


Right for us today? No. Right 1000
years ago? If you lived in those times
you never would have considered
the question. It was expected common
practice that wasn't considered wrong.
It's why Jesus never condemned slavery and
called for it's end. It was common
practice and not looked at as wrong.

Quote:
Right and wrong are not flowing concepts and don't change. Our view of them (a very different thing) or our perception on them (again very different question)


That's all right and wrong is, perception.
It's not a universal constant, like gravity.
It's not waiting to pop out at you from
behind a bush. We decide what's right
and wrong, the universe doesn't decide
it for us. The universe has no opinion.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 15th, 2021 at 3:51:56 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
Right for us today? No. Right 1000
years ago? If you lived in those times
you never would have considered
the question. It was expected common
practice that wasn't considered wrong.


I understand why you won't really answer the question.
Your measure for determining if something is good is, "it was expected common practice that wasn't considered wrong."
Do you at least feel a little uncomfortable with that low bar? Are you a little embarrassed at how low your standards are? Are you worried that what you think is wrong today might not be considered wrong soon?
You seem to look at morality as fashion trends.



Quote:
That's all right and wrong is, perception.
It's not a universal constant, like gravity.


Right and wrong are universal constants stronger than some weak force like gravity.
You can do absolutely nothing to make racial slavery or rape right and moral goods. They are evil and wrong and have always and will always be. You cannot even imagine a world where things like torture and abuse are truly right and good. You can talk about perception all you want, but perception is you just wanting to delude yourself and pretend you really have a say in these things. You strike me as a kid wishing really hard that the apple you are holding will float upwards against gravity. You can't do it, you have not the power, like it or not you are bound to moral laws of right and wrong that come from beyond any of us and are written on your very heart.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 15th, 2021 at 9:47:27 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
IAre you a little embarrassed at how low your standards are?


Aren't you embarrassed that I
have the same moral code
as Jesus? That slavery 2000
years ago was not a wrong
concept?

"Nowhere in the New Testament will you find a condemnation of slavery, nor an updating of the Mosaic slave code. Instead you have Ephesians 6 where slaves are told to be “obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling”; and Philemon, where Paul sends back a runaway slave to his Christian owner. Jesus does not raise a word against the practice."

Why would Jesus speak against
it. He looked at slavery as an
integral part of his society, as
did everyone else. Without
slaves the society would have
collapsed.

Quote:
Right and wrong are universal constants


Where are they, then, how do you
find them outside of public opinion.
How do you prove their existence.

universal constant definition:
a physical constant of wide application and frequent occurrence in physical formulas; the speed of light, the electronic charge, etc., are universal constants.

Right and wrong are opinions drawn
from society in the times they live in.
It's not a constant at all, it's an ever
moving target that changes all the
time. You want it to be written in
stone, for your religion to exist you
must convince your followers that
it IS written in stone. Otherwise
you have no power over them at
all, your just spewing the the Church's
opinion and not facts.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 15th, 2021 at 4:59:26 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
y for a father to set up rules and consequences for his children.


God doesn't have consequences, he has
life-or-death ultimatums. No father does
that, do it his way or die. Talk about unhealthy.


Quote:
you do not know God or at least understand at all the Christian idea of God.


Just going by what your Bible
says:

God knows our thoughts no matter who or where we are. Psalm 139 begins this way: “O LORD, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar”

Just one of many passages that
claims god knows our thoughts.

Quote:
We are made in the image and likeness of God but we are very different than God.


How so. If we are very different,
image and likeness are meaningless.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 16th, 2021 at 5:04:07 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Bob I feel for ya. It must be very hard to try to hold onto a position that is so distasteful, illogical, and the cause of so many of our problems in the world today. The idea that we can just make up for ourselves what is right or wrong and that you can believe one thing and I the opposite and we can both be right; these are tempting things. They make living a moral and virtuous life easy (at least for ourselves) and it absolves us of the painstaking and sacrificial work of actually pursuing the truth and submitting to it - it is so very much easier to make it up based on what we want to believe. Your doctrine of relativism also seems so kind and charitable.

I also get that believing in objective truths seems cold and hard. It is like Galileo removing us from the center of the universe. Individual human beings and humanity are not the masters of their fate and they cannot decide for, vote to change, or force things to be true or false; right or wrong. Racial slavery has always and always will be wrong. Before the Exodus event when the Bible condemned it (by the way, wherever that quote you used was from, it was someone who never read Philemon), even when America and the West made it legal, chattel or racial slavery was always and will always be wrong. No matter what the Germans or their leaders thought; the Holocaust was evil and if individual people now or in any time in the future think otherwise they are simple wrong. If someone looks at a stop sign and says it is green, they are wrong. They might perceive it to be green, they might want it to be green, they might wish it to be green, they might put a gun to your head to say it is green - but it is still red. I know this fact is tough to swallow and I understand why you and so many want to relativists, unfortunately for you (and fortunately for all of us) that does not make you right.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 16th, 2021 at 9:52:16 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
They make living a moral and virtuous life easy (at least for ourselves) and it absolves us of the painstaking and sacrificial work of actually pursuing the truth and submitting to it


The exact opposite is true. The life
you lead is the easy one. It requires
zero thought, zero turmoil. Just
sign on for your program and all
the heavy lifting has been done for
you. What you should think about
right and wrong, good and evil,
it's all been worked out and all
you have to do is relax and follow
rules. Easy peasy.

Quote:
They might perceive it to be green, they might want it to be green, they might wish it to be green, they might put a gun to your head to say it is green - but it is still red.


Again you are purposely mixing the
objective world with the subjective
and not making a point at all. Right
and wrong are subjective opinions,
whether a light is green or red is not.
You can try and make the
subjective/objective one and the same
all you want, because that's what
religion does. Moral laws exist in
your head only. Try pretending red
lights only exist in your head will
get you a ticket every time.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 16th, 2021 at 10:50:08 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
It requires
zero thought, zero turmoil. Just
sign on for your program and all
the heavy lifting has been done for
you.


Where do you think the real turmoil comes in living a good and moral life?
It doesn't come for either of us in the rules themselves. You just make them up according to what you desire and want, easy peasy. I recognize that I am not the be all and end all of things and realize that whether I desire or want something to be be true or good that does not mean it is. That in itself is hard. It is a great temptation to want to pretend or play at being God. It is very hard to humble yourself and submit to the idea that I do not get to determine what is right based on what I want them to be.

Then the hardest part comes - namely living according to these moral laws either the ones you set up for yourself or the ones that I believe come from God. You know we both fail in living these out. You cannot even live perfectly the made up rules you have set up for yourself. I certainly cannot live up to the rules that God has set up for us all. The heavy lifting for both of us is trying hard, none of it has been done for us. It is dependent on our hard work, effort, discipline, sacrifice, and logical consistency in action.

No, I'm afraid you have chose the easier path, the one most people choose.



Quote:
Try pretending red
lights only exist in your head will
get you a ticket every time.


Yes it will. Try pretending moral laws only exist in your head and it will lead you and others to suffering every time.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
January 16th, 2021 at 11:28:36 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: FrGamble
No, I'm afraid you have chose the easier path,


One if the first things I noticed
in the year I was trying to be a
Xtion was, how easy it is. There
were rules for everything, with
no leeway. This is right and that
is wrong, ditto for good and
evil. And if you had a question,
there were lots of people to ask
and set you straight. No thinking
involved. And if you got it wrong
sometimes, no worries. God forgives
you.

When you're secular you have
nobody to ask. There are no
set in stone rules. You have to
decide all the time what your
moral compass is. The easiest
way by far is just join some
organized religion where it's
all been worked out for you,
which is what most people do.

Quote:
Try pretending moral laws only exist in your head and it will lead you and others to suffering every time.


Maybe, maybe not. Do you know
over 90% of all burglaries in the
US go unsolved? Crime very much
pays, that's why criminals do it.
Does it lead to suffering? If they
get caught it does. But a large
percentage never get caught.
A huge percentage of most crimes
are never solved. From shoplifting
to murder and everything in between.

This is why the Church imposed
the Hay's Act on movies and TV for
40 years. If a crime was committed,
before the show was over that crime
had to be punished. The polar opposite
of what happens in real life. It was so
ridiculous and so far from reality,
Hollywood stopped doing it in the
late 60's and the industry changed
forever.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
January 17th, 2021 at 10:40:19 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
One if the first things I noticed
in the year I was trying to be a
Xtion was, how easy it is. There
were rules for everything, with
no leeway.


Sounds like you were trying to join a cult. As a general rule if someone, anyone, is trying to tell you what you should think, feel, or comes up with rules for everything run the other direction.

Quote:
When you're secular you have
nobody to ask. There are no
set in stone rules.


What you seem to be saying is you can make it up as you go along based on whatever is easier and whatever you want. That seems kind of easy and not a good way to live.


Quote:
Do you know
over 90% of all burglaries in the
US go unsolved? Crime very much
pays, that's why criminals do it.
Does it lead to suffering? If they
get caught it does.


Here we have a perfect example of your philosophy of life and beliefs in action. You pay zero attention to the victim of the crime and only focus on the criminal who got away with it. You just reinforce my point that pretending there are no moral absolutes and foolishly thinking you can make up what is right or wrong for yourself leads to suffering. It will eventually always lead to suffering for the person committing the acts and will always immediately lead to suffering for the victims. Please think of the other and not just yourself and you will better understand why it is impossible for civilization to exist without some higher objective standard for morality than me, myself, and I.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (