First Principles

Ohio Priest Suspended for Three Months, Could Face Defrocking, For Attending ‘Stop the Steal’ Rally

What the heck, this is what the Beijing
Biden admin will look like, suspending
priests? This is not a good sign..

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/01/ohio-priest-suspended-three-months-face-defrocking-attending-stop-steal-rally/

Quote: Evenbob

Now you'll say slavery is
ALWAYS wrong.

Will you not say that slavery is ALWAYS wrong?

Quote:

To which
the response has to be, to
who?

To which my response is that question makes no sense. What does it matter if the torturer thinks he is right or the slaver or the Nazi? That has no bearing on whether something is right or wrong. Right or wrong is not something that is determined by perspective or by who is in power. You can't vote to make murder or lying a good thing. The facts don't care about your feelings or your wants or desires. I will say that racial slavery is 100% wrong if you ask the enslaved but you seem to always want to ignore the perspective of the victim or the lowly. They are the real ones who we should be asking to help determine the morality of something.

Quote:

There is always a
caveat to every 'moral law'
you name. Stealing is wrong,
unless your family is starving
and it's justified. Then it's
just kinda sorta wrong.

We have talked about this before. These caveats that you are right to bring up; do not change the morality of something but determine our culpability, guilt, or understanding. A family who is starving and steals from another family is doing wrong but their culpability and guilt are lessened and we can better understand their choice to do wrong, but it does not effect the morality of their actions.

Quote:

Killing another human is
wrong, we've already attached
14 caveats to that one.

These attachments you claim are not really caveats but amount to different moral acts. Killing in self defense is not murder, it is a completely different thing. Murder is the direct and unprovoked killing of the innocent. This is always wrong no matter how many caveats you want to attach to it. If it is in war it not called murder because that is an entirely different thing. If it is capital punishment, which I believe is wrong, it is not murder. I hope you understand this.

Quote: FrGamble

Will you not say that slavery is ALWAYS wrong?

In what context. In Jesus time, without
slaves there would have been no
society. Our notions of human rights
absolutely did not exist in those
days. You and would say slavery
is wrong, Jesus and Paul would
say we were nuts. We cannot see
their world through our eyes, it's
impossible. We should not even
attempt it.

Quote:

What does it matter if the torturer thinks he is right

It's not the person, it's the
times he lived in. Just last
night in an ep of Outlander
in 18th century Scotland, a
priest was about to cut off
the hand of a 12 year old
boy for petty theft. He was
told instead to nail the boys
ear to a post where the only
way he get get loose was to
jerk his head away and rip
the ear. This was an actual
punishment for the time.
The people were not appalled,
they cheered. Was this wrong
to do this to a child? In our
opinion yes, in their opinion
no. The universe has no opinion,
it's neutral.

Quote:

If it is in war it not called murder because that is an entirely different thing. If it is capital punishment, which I believe is wrong, it is not murder. I hope you understand this.

It's killing made OK with caveats. It
takes 'do not kill' and waters it down
and muddies it. It clearly shows
that right and wrong always has
to be determined in context, it
doesn't stand alone on its own.

Quote: Evenbob

In what context.

Again, it doesn't matter what context. You are just making phony excuses for evil. Any tyrant can claim to enslave someone because for some reason or another or torture or kill another person because of this reason or that. This is why Jesus and Paul speak out for human rights and the equality of every human person. There is no context that changes evil into good and there is no time no matter how far back you go or what different time you chose or no matter who is in power. Evil acts such as racial slavery, rape, etc. are evil and the context is just a way for those in power to make excuses and control people and pretend they are doing good just to sooth their guilty consciences.

Quote:

Was this wrong
to do this to a child?

Of course it was and it doesn't matter what time period it was or what someone might have thought or what people may or may not have known about human rights. If you cannot say that in all times and places it is wrong to nail a child's ear to the wall for stealing than we should just end this conversation now because it is hopeless.

Quote: FrGamble

Again, it doesn't matter what context.

Context is everything. Jesus and Paul
did not condemn slavery as evil
because it was not morally problematic
for them. Morality didn't enter into
it. Human rights were not a concept
yet. Slavery was a needed and accepted
part of society. It's like in the 1950's
you could go to prison for a long time
for possession of weed. It was morally
wrong and illegal. Today weed is legal
in half the states. What changed a
wrong to a right. When I was a kid
only the lowest of the low in society
did drugs, Today everybody does it.
So is it wrong or right. Context is the
answer.

Quote:

Evil acts such as racial slavery

Why do you keep singling out
racial slavery. In Jesus time
slaves were beaten, sold,
and mistreated just as much
as Blacks were in this country.

Quote:

Of course it was and it doesn't matter what time period it was

It was appallingly wrong from my
perspective. The real question is,
why was it not wrong to them
at that time. Why was slavery
not wrong to those doing it
2000 years ago. Were they stupid?
We know they were not.
Were they incapable of charity?
Nope. Jesus went town to town
preaching the end of the world.
Why didn't he throw 'free your
slaves' in there too. Because it
never would have even occurred
to him to do so. Why is that.

Quote: Evenbob

Today everybody does it.
So is it wrong or right. Context is the
answer.

So are you saying that because everyone does it that means it is right?

The number of people who say something is right or wrong doesn't mean that it is what the majority or powerful decide. Why do you give such power over morality to the majority or to tyrants? Maybe you could explain to me how context changes the morality of things. If everyone is doing drugs does that make it into a good thing? How does that work?

Quote:

Why do you keep singling out
racial slavery.

You yourself have pointed out a couple of times that slavery in the ancient world was very different than the concept of slavery we all have in our minds that is based on treating someone with a different skin color as less than yourself, unequal, and not a man. This racial slavery and treating another person as property or chattel is a grave abomination that is condemned in the fundamental stories of the Bible and which Jesus and Paul speak powerfully against in their emphasis on the equality in the eyes of God's love of all human beings regardless of our differences.

Quote:

It was appallingly wrong from my
perspective. The real question is,
why was it not wrong to them
at that time.

That is indeed the real question and the most important one. Why would anyone think such torture was good? You will never find the answer or understand if you continue to hold the notion that for them it was a good thing. If you think that the person nailing the ear of a child to a wall was doing a good thing because of the context or culture he lived in than you cannot even ask the question why was it not wrong to them? You have your answer and you seem to be claiming that it wasn't wrong. To your credit you cannot accept that answer because it is appalling to you, as it should be. It is appalling that anyone at anytime would think such torture was good. You need to look at what was wrong in that time. You need to look at the undeveloped notions of human rights. The torture of children was never and could never be a good thing no matter the context or circumstances. Also remember that the greater development of human rights does not mean that morality or right and wrong changed. It just means that our growing human understanding of what is objectively right and wrong sheds new light on the atrocities of old.

Quote: FrGamble

The number of people who say something is right or wrong doesn't mean that it is

Who gets to decide then, you? It's
a fact that smoking dope was a
major wrong in the 50's, yet it's
so 'right' today that's it's legal
in half the country. Do you think
people get up thinking every
day about how wrong they are to
smoke it? Not hardly. It's wrong
for me, it's wrong for you. It's
not up to me or you to make it
wrong for everybody else.

Quote:

You yourself have pointed out a couple of times that slavery in the ancient world was very different than the concept of slavery we all have in our minds

I have NEVER 'pointed that out', I
absolutely do not believe that.
Slavery in Jesus time was pretty
much the same as all slavery at
all times. You were owned, you had
no rights, you could be beaten
and sold on a whim. Slaves were
so miserable in Jesus time they
frequently ran away and when
caught many were crucified as
an example to other slaves. In
fact the slave class was the most
crucified of all.

Quote:

That is indeed the real question and the most important one. Why would anyone think such torture was good? .

I never said it was good or bad.
Why was it not wrong is the
question. To the people at that
time it wasn't good or bad or
right or wrong. It was simply
what was done to criminals
to deter crime. This was not a
well educated public, this was
a totally uneducated public
who had never read a book in
their lives. The punishments had
to be harsh for it to sink into
their heads. There were
compassionate people but they
were in the minority.

So right or wrong depends on
where you are standing in history
in many cases, everything has to
be put in context. It's very
dangerous to think there is only
one 'right' way and you're the
one that has it. My mom used
to chase us around with a switch
from the cherry tree and raise
welts on our bare legs in the
50's. Was she wrong to do this?
Not in the context of the times,
most parents in our neighborhood
used corporal punishment. Today
my mom would go to jail if she
did that.

Quote: FrGamble

...You yourself have pointed out a couple of times that slavery in the ancient world was very different than the concept of slavery we all have in our minds that is based on treating someone with a different skin color as less than yourself, unequal, and not a man. This racial slavery and treating another person as property or chattel is a grave abomination that is condemned in the fundamental stories of the Bible and which Jesus and Paul speak powerfully against in their emphasis on the equality in the eyes of God's love of all human beings regardless of our differences.

You are a "servant" are you not?

Thousands of years ago or hundreds, if a slave mother or adults that a baby learned from taught, "that's the way it is" a child that was a slave might grow up believing they were a slave and just accept it? Sometimes staying is better than running, fact. A slave owner did have to house, feed, clothe and provide health care of the time. Health care of course being similar to veterinary care. A farmer doesn't want his mule going down, made sick from lack of protection, starved for lack of food, etc. It doesn't make good business sense.

In this country today, in the Appalachians or other poor areas, kids grow up and many of them don't expect things to change. Is it not believable that thousands of years ago, slaves grew up thinking "this is as good as it gets"?

There are obviously better and worse 'lots' that one could draw. Jesus had a heck of a sales pitch, "follow me and you will be free", to the land of milk and honey.

I to have noticed you almost always describe slavery as "racial slavery". Is that worse than chattel slavery, or is chattel slavery from the biblical times more acceptable?

Quote: FrGamble

So are you saying that because everyone does it that means it is right?...

Isn't that the argument you use for the existence of god, because so many believe it, it must be so?

Quote: petroglyph

I to have noticed you almost always describe slavery as "racial slavery". Is that worse than chattel slavery, or is chattel slavery from the biblical times more acceptable?

Racial slavery is the same thing as chattel slavery. It is looking at a person of different color as less than you and forcing them into slavery. Slavery in the ancient world was not based on skin color and you often sold yourself into slavery so it was more akin to indentured servitude, which is not a good place to be no matter how you slice it. There were also slaves created from wars and such. The slavery we think of where people were enslaved because of their race and treated as property was something that the Old Testament and New Testament speak strongly against.