First Principles

Quote: petroglyph

Isn't that the argument you use for the existence of god, because so many believe it, it must be so?

Not at all. I think it is evidence that points to the existence of God but it doesn't make it so.

I'm glad you pointed that out though because it shows another illogical thought pattern with Evenbob. He says that it doesn't matter that 99% of people believe in God and that he doesn't even consider that evidence. Yet if 99% believe using drugs is a good thing he is willing to agree and say that the context and majority of people right now demonstrate that this must be a good thing. Interesting.

Quote: FrGamble

The slavery we think of where people were enslaved because of their race

That isn't the discussion. Who cares
what they were enslaved for, what
matters is they were all treated the
same. No rights, could be beaten
and mistreated, and sold anytime.

You seem to think slavery was some
kind of soft and gentle thing in
Jesus time. Slaves ran away all the
time and were crucified for it.
They were beaten publicly and
privately all the time. There were
women kept as sexual slaves their
entire lives. Jesus saw all of this
and said nothing because he saw
it as normal practice for the times.
Why would he speak out, what's
wrong to us now obviously was a daily
accepted practice then.

Quote: FrGamble

He says that it doesn't matter that 99% of people believe in God .

Doesn't prove a thing, doesn't make it
a true thing or right or wrong. They've
been fooled, has happened many
times with many things.

Quote: FrGamble

Not at all. I think it is evidence that points to the existence of God but it doesn't make it so.

I'm glad you pointed that out though because it shows another illogical thought pattern with Evenbob. He says that it doesn't matter that 99% of people believe in God and that he doesn't even consider that evidence. Yet if 99% believe using drugs is a good thing he is willing to agree and say that the context and majority of people right now demonstrate that this must be a good thing. Interesting.

You say this as though everyone thinks as you do, to me it is logic salad.

When you say 99% believe in drugs, I say they've been informed ignorantly. Those that did the informing, largely came from an age before the internet. Now if anyone wants to google it, they can see that religion has been a drug of the masses for eons. Most don't take the time to consider why.

People are basically just in it for themselves. You cast shadows toward Bob, but where do you get your stats?

https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/belief-in-god/

63% of adults believe in something besides themselves according to Pew. But the stats are cooked. How many Chinese were polled? If a person believes in two gods, and another person believes in no gods, and a third is agnostic, does that mean two out of three are religious?

Regardless, the requerimiento concluded:

“But, if you do not do this, or maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses; we shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him; and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their Highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us.[24]

It was no bluff, as the Tiwas quickly learned in the Tiguex War.

Castañeda reported how the expeditionaries killed every Tiwa warrior in the attack against the first rebellious pueblo, which the Spaniards called Arenal.[25] When scores of Tiwas surrendered under a promise of amnesty, campmaster García López de Cárdenas had at least thirty of them burned alive at the stake, presumably on Coronado’s orders. The expeditionaries cut the rest down with swords and lances. Because safety had been pledged with the sign of the cross to those who surrendered, the executions were too much for even Castañeda.


The Requerimiento of 1513 was written by the Spanish jurist Juan López. It was written to justify enslaving the Native Americans living in the lands that the Spanish Empire conquered if they didn't submit to Spanish rule.Apr 17, 2017

Bob, it does matter why someone is forced into servitude. It also matters that the Jewish people were once slaves freed by God. There were no "sexual slaves", whatever you mean by that among the Jews. Every seven years or so during the Jubilee all slaves were freed and debts forgiven. The Jewish law strictly governed conduct with everyone. Jesus spoke explicitly about the equality of all and that God has come to set us free. He ate with and was friends with tax collectors, maybe the only group of people treated worse than slaves. St. Paul wrote an entire letter in the New Testament calling for the release and equality of a run away slave. Pope's taught and wrote encyclicals against the slave trade and forbidding Catholics under pain of excommunication if they participated (of course not everyone listened, then as like now).

However, you might be just trying in an akward way to say that you think slavery in the ancient world, during times of racial slavery, and right now when there are more slaves than during the last 400 years is okay. Is that what you are trying to say? Do you think that slavery was okay because it was accepted during certain times in history? Was it morally good in your opinion because it was legal and everyone was doing it?

Quote: Evenbob

Doesn't prove a thing, doesn't make it
a true thing or right or wrong. They've
been fooled, has happened many
times with many things.

What?!? I thought your whole argument was that morality changes and that things are made right or wrong based on what the majority think or what culture says is okay. Is that not what you are saying?

I would be impressed if you said that even if 99% of people said enslaving people because of the color of their skin was okay - they would still be wrong. I agree with you that the number of people who might believe something dosen't make it to be true or false, right or wrong. In fact I'm really glad to hear we agree on this fundamental point; and that we both seem to recognize the fallacy and danger of thinking just becaise lots of people agree about something doea not make it right or wrong.

Quote: FrGamble

However, you might be just trying in an akward way to say that you think slavery in the ancient world, during times of racial slavery,

This constant mentioning of racial
slavery, I see what you're doing.
It's a major flaw in the teaching's
of Jesus that he never outright
condemned the owning of slaves.
Something he was surrounded by
all his life and he never once
directly condemned it. So you want
to believe he never talked about
it because the slavery then was
sooooo much different than
racial slavery. Why, it was almost
wonderful slavery. They had caring
loving masters who treated them
like family members, why would
Jesus ever condemn that.

No, sorry, it was regular old
fashioned slavery where you had
no rights, could be traded or sold
or beaten at any time and you were
miserable. And Jesus never condemned
it because he saw nothing wrong
with it, just another common and
accepted practice of his times.

Quote: FrGamble

What?!? I thought your whole argument was that morality changes and that things are made right or wrong based on what the majority think or what culture says is okay..

And it's still just an opinion that
that people go along with so
they can live in society. Doesn't
make it true if 99% agree with
it. Doesn't make god true. Without
actual proof belief in god is just
you're opinion. I choose common
sense and reason than just following
the herd mentality.

Quote: Evenbob

And it's still just an opinion that
that people go along with so
they can live in society. Doesn't
make it true if 99% agree with
it. Doesn't make god true. Without
actual proof belief in god is just
you're opinion. I choose common
sense and reason than just following
the herd mentality.

So is everything just an opinion to you? Is there such a thing as Truth?